Wonder Elimination Thread

[Randall Turner]

re: the Louvre - hold on now. The use for those Great Artists is as "Landmarks" or culture bombs. The Landmarks scale - if you've got a city with the Hermitage and the Broadcast Tower and Constitution, they're about 25 culture each, not just six.

And culture bombs are just cool, especially if you border someone you're not fond of. (Gee, how often does that happen? )

I'd agree that currently, you're probably going to end up with enough extra Great Generals that they're the preferred Golden Age casualties.

 

[NicTeos]

25 ? with 100 % through wonder bonus ( this freedom social policy stuff ) and 100 % with broadcast tower ( they are little bit later ) and 33 % with chapel you are something about 6 * 2,33 and even if I should forget something, you will lose the normal tile-improvement with +hammers,+food,+gold. And even then if it should be 50 (netto), it's rather less in a big game. Don't remember my highest culture gain, but I believe it was about 2k, big maps.

And culture bomb ? conquer it.

 

[Randall Turner]

The max culture multiplier is 3.33, Broadcast Tower + Hermitage + Wonder + Sistine Chapel, so the end result is 4.33 x 6 == 26. Pop it on a cow, you'll still get the stable bonus. I do this all the time, it's a significant late-game bump to culture.

 

[Agent Cooper]

The max culture multiplier is 3.33, Broadcast Tower + Hermitage + Wonder + Sistine Chapel, so the end result is 4.33 x 6 == 26. Pop it on a cow, you'll still get the stable bonus. I do this all the time, it's a significant late-game bump to culture.

Lol... whenever I settle a GA as a landmark, I also smack him down on cows. A cow is actually... a very sophisticated farm animal

 

[civnoob13]

I know I can't talk, but let's try and keep to voting. So people don't have to look, the most recent vote is:
Angkor Wat 17
Big Ben 27
Chichen Itza 28
Cristo Redentor 23
Eiffel Tower 2
Himeji Castle 30
Pentagon 24
Sistine Chapel 23
Statue of Liberty 26
Stonehenge 41
Taj Mahal 7
Forbidden Palace 20
Great Library 20
Hagia Sophia 23
Louvre 6
Oracle 20
Porcelain Tower 21
Pyramids 30

 

[TM Moot]

Sorry guys, I'm done voting. Can't see this finishing before the patch is out.

How about redoing it post-patch, although perhaps with a starting score of 10

 

[civnoob13]

Sorry guys, I'm done voting. Can't see this finishing before the patch is out.

How about redoing it post-patch, although perhaps with a starting score of 10

Agreed.

 

[NicTeos]

hm, does it improve the result, when reducing the base number to 10 ? It makes it faster and when the less accurate result shouldn't be that different, then maybe we get more voters from a broader audience as improvement. However, a big improvement imho would be, to define the settings of the map. Small <-> Big maps, SP <-> MP as the main factors. Maybe also type of map, raging barbs, difficulty, and and and ... .

However my vote for today

Angkor Wat 17
Big Ben 27
Chichen Itza 28
Cristo Redentor 23
Eiffel Tower 2
Himeji Castle 30
Pentagon 24
Sistine Chapel 23
Statue of Liberty 26
Stonehenge 41
Taj Mahal 7
Forbidden Palace 21
Great Library 20
Hagia Sophia 23
Louvre 4
Oracle 20
Porcelain Tower 21
Pyramids 30

FP - Scaling Happiness wonder - awesome on big maps
Louvre - Less effect at that time on big maps.

Maybe also extend the rules, that it isn't allowed to downvote a wonder two times in series ( based on the same player - not allowed to downvote the same wonder on the next day. To prevent that a single user can kill a wonder too fast - goodbye louvre ) until 3 Wonders are left ...

 

[Man vs Civ AI]

Angkor Wat 17
Big Ben 27
Chichen Itza 28
Cristo Redentor 24
Eiffel Tower 2
Himeji Castle 30
Pentagon 22
Sistine Chapel 23
Statue of Liberty 26
Stonehenge 41
Taj Mahal 7
Forbidden Palace 21
Great Library 20
Hagia Sophia 23
Louvre 4
Oracle 20
Porcelain Tower 21
Pyramids 30

I almost always go for Cristo Redentor - the policy reduction helps late in the game. Previously I had chosen the Pyramids, but the upcoming patch will really hurt them.
The Pentagon will decrease in usefulness with the patch - some units loose bonuses when upgrading after the patch (gives less incentive to upgrade), along with the decrease in effectiveness from 50% reduction to only 33% reduction in upgrade cost, really hurts this wonder.

Edit: this will be my last vote here, unfortunately I think the upcoming patch kills the usefullness of thread.

 

[elprofesor]

Angkor Wat 17
Big Ben 27
Chichen Itza 28
Cristo Redentor 24
Eiffel Tower 2
Himeji Castle 30
Pentagon 22
Sistine Chapel 23
Statue of Liberty 26
Stonehenge 41
Taj Mahal 7
Forbidden Palace 22
Great Library 20
Hagia Sophia 23
Louvre 4
Oracle 18
Porcelain Tower 21
Pyramids 30

FP: as always
Oracle: if you are going cultural, Stonehenge is a better pick. If not, one SP is not going to make a difference. Plus, you should be investing hammers in expansion, then.

 

[NicTeos]

@ Man vs Civ AI, the wonder-voting is about the current state and not, what it will be post-patch. Maybe there will be a new elimination thread with the patch.

 

[Bezurn]

Angkor Wat 17
Big Ben 27
Chichen Itza 28
Cristo Redentor 24
Eiffel Tower 0 - BYE BYE, see you next patch
Himeji Castle 31
Pentagon 22
Sistine Chapel 23
Statue of Liberty 26
Stonehenge 41
Taj Mahal 7
Forbidden Palace 22
Great Library 20
Hagia Sophia 23
Louvre 4
Oracle 18
Porcelain Tower 21
Pyramids 30

Upvote: Himeji Castle - No duplicate benefit until 2 eras later, good GPP generation, good culture generation.
Downvote: Effiel Tower - Weak and bland. Good for a large empire struggling with happiness, but stadiums are just around the corner.

 

[Tabarnak]

Angkor Wat 17
Big Ben 27
Chichen Itza 28
Cristo Redentor 24
Himeji Castle 31
Pentagon 22
Sistine Chapel 23
Statue of Liberty 26
Stonehenge 41
Taj Mahal 5
Forbidden Palace 22
Great Library 20
Hagia Sophia 23
Louvre 5
Oracle 18
Porcelain Tower 21
Pyramids 30

i've built both Taj and Louvre in my present multiplayer game(epic game with Onan, Mesopotamian and Brenador from multiplayer threads). Louvre is giving me 14 turns(standard speed) of GA while i'm building Apollo(13 turns of completion). Taj gave me 8 turns of GA. Since i'm bigger with Louvre, i have more hammers and more income from this wonder and i started the GA when i wanted. Cleary, from this example, Louvre is superior to Taj.

 

[civnoob13]

Well if everyone else is still doing it!

There's no way we'll get this done before the patch, but oh well. I'll make another ones about a fortnight after the patch. Could the mods do a favour and lock this after the patch has been released? That way it is strictly a pre-patch vote and has some sort of value.


Angkor Wat 17
Big Ben 27
Chichen Itza 28
Cristo Redentor 24
Himeji Castle 31
Pentagon 22
Sistine Chapel 23
Statue of Liberty 26
Stonehenge 41
Taj Mahal 5
Forbidden Palace 22
Great Library 20
Hagia Sophia 23
Louvre 3
Oracle 18
Porcelain Tower 21
Pyramids 31

The Louvre is FAR worse than the Taj Mahal IMHO. For one, it comes later and is more expensive, and is therefore worse. Further, I'm pretty sure that the GA period for the Taj Mahal is quite a lot more than the GA period of the two great artists put together, and that is even assuming that you haven't used a great person for a GA before (and in most cases this is not the case). True, you can time the GA with The Louvre, but it is usually too late in the game to really matter anyway, and too short of a GA to make a difference.

The Pyramids are simply fantastic for construction. Nothing more really has to be said.

 

[Randall Turner]

I need to find a new Wonder to ping, I sort of like the Louvre and the Taj Mahal...

Okay. Angkor Wat doesn't do much for me, it's only -25% tile cost. Not terrible, but maybe not as good as the rest.

Lots of good ones left, bump the Pentagon again, it got hurt in the patch though...

Angkor Wat 15
Big Ben 27
Chichen Itza 28
Cristo Redentor 24
Himeji Castle 31
Pentagon 23
Sistine Chapel 23
Statue of Liberty 26
Stonehenge 41
Taj Mahal 5
Forbidden Palace 22
Great Library 20
Hagia Sophia 23
Louvre 3
Oracle 18
Porcelain Tower 21
Pyramids 31

 

[Tabarnak]

The Louvre is FAR worse than the Taj Mahal IMHO. For one, it comes later and is more expensive, and is therefore worse. Further, I'm pretty sure that the GA period for the Taj Mahal is quite a lot more than the GA period of the two great artists put together, to be said.

Why later mean worse? I was talking about a science victory. For best finish, it's better to build Apollo during a long GA(TAj 8 turns compared to 14 for Louvre) and discover other techs for ship parts meanwhile. Expensive? Have you actually played a game where your cities have actually built EVERYTHING and sit down and do nothing? I hard builded the Louvre to reduce of 25% of turns the completion of Apollo later. I like to focus on high production strategies(especially for multiplayer). I wasn't building Apollo on turn 300, we are at turn 230 and i'm at 13 turns of completion. Multiplayer game. I don't say that the Louvre is better in ALL situations, i said for science and cultural victories. When Taj is online, there is so much things to buid that i build this wonder only if i'm pretty sure i will not have problems on other parts of my game.

For cultural and science victories, for those who think Louvre is worse than Taj, you really have missed the point. Just check some HoF and GOTM games you will see that best scores emphasize the Louvre somewhere late in the game.

Funny because at the opposite, the Pyramids is one of the worst wonders for my taste. Sorry but i always get enough workers to do the job. I disband then when i'm in the ren-ind era because they have nothing to do and i reduce maintenance.

 

[NicTeos]

Angkor Wat 15
Big Ben 27
Chichen Itza 28
Cristo Redentor 24
Himeji Castle 31
Pentagon 23
Sistine Chapel 23
Statue of Liberty 26
Stonehenge 41
Taj Mahal 5
Forbidden Palace 23
Great Library 20
Hagia Sophia 23
Louvre 1
Oracle 18
Porcelain Tower 21
Pyramids 31

FP - scaling happiness Wonder
Louvre - poor, late GP wonder

I also rely on high production and war. In single player games no problem, size of map and game-speed matters. How much GP have you used for GA until louvre, me and also other players have brought it somewhere to minimum duration. And you missed something, louvre is going to die quite early, so more players think so.

And how many workers do you have ? 5, 10, 25 ? it's a good investment, but as good as other actions? Map size and other settings.

 

[elprofesor]

Angkor Wat 15
Big Ben 27
Chichen Itza 28
Cristo Redentor 24
Himeji Castle 31
Pentagon 23
Sistine Chapel 23
Statue of Liberty 26
Stonehenge 41
Taj Mahal 5
Forbidden Palace 24
Great Library 20
Hagia Sophia 23
Louvre 0
Oracle 18
Porcelain Tower 21
Pyramids 31

FP: as always
Louvre: I don't know how you manage to do it, but in my games, 2 GP in the industrial era get me less GA time than the Taj. 8 turns doesn't seem to be enough, I usually get more (15, maybe?). Do you play on quick?
Plus, if playing with Persia, when you finish the Taj, and since you HAVE to build the Chichen Itzà, you will never get out of the GA again, between the Taj, the Happiness, the GP, opening rationalism...

 

[jbevermore]

Angkor Wat 15
Big Ben 27
Chichen Itza 28
Cristo Redentor 24
Himeji Castle 31
Pentagon 23
Sistine Chapel 23
Statue of Liberty 27 (+1)
Stonehenge 41
Taj Mahal 5
Forbidden Palace 24
Great Library 20
Hagia Sophia 23
Oracle 18
Porcelain Tower 21
Pyramids 29 (-2)

I love the Statue of Liberty, lets your science and commerce cities pull off decent production while still GP spamming. Especially with the right civics in the freedom tree.

Pyramids just increasingly don't seem to be worth the effort, as easy as it is to grab workers from the AI. YMMV

 

[Furycrab]

Angkor Wat 15
Big Ben 27
Chichen Itza 28
Cristo Redentor 25 (+1)
Himeji Castle 31
Pentagon 23
Sistine Chapel 23
Statue of Liberty 27
Stonehenge 39 (-2)
Taj Mahal 5
Forbidden Palace 24
Great Library 20
Hagia Sophia 23
Oracle 18
Porcelain Tower 21
Pyramids 29

Love Cristo, Launches me into Cultural victories, or gives me an Edge where it cuts the next few SPs by quite a bit.

Hate Stonehedge... If for no other reason that it has lead me to the most Wonder fails than any other wonder put together.