Wonder Elimination Thread

Alhambra 20
Big Ben 24
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 25
Colossus 9
Cristo Redentor 13
Eiffel Tower 24
Forbidden Palace 12
Great Library 22
Great Lighthouse 16
Great Mosque of Djenne 12
Great Wall 0
Hagia Sophia 23
Himeji Castle 21
Hanging Gardens 24
Hubble 27
Leaning Tower of Pisa 23
Louvre 24
Machu Picchu 22
Neuschwanstein Castle 23
Notre Dame 25
Oracle 28
Petra 27
Porcelain Tower 22
Pyramids 26
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 22
Stonehenge 23
Sydney Opera House 17
Taj Mahal 18

Great Mosque of Djenne - Why make a missionary when your enhancer and third great prophet will convert all of your cities.

Leaning Tower of Pisa - It tech position enables you to get a second wonder with a great engineer.
 
Alhambra 20
Big Ben 24
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 25
Colossus 9
Cristo Redentor 13
Eiffel Tower 24
Forbidden Palace 12
Great Library 22
Great Lighthouse 14 (-2)
Great Mosque of Djenne 12
Hagia Sophia 23
Himeji Castle 21
Hanging Gardens 24
Hubble 27
Leaning Tower of Pisa 24 (+1)
Louvre 24
Machu Picchu 22
Neuschwanstein Castle 23
Notre Dame 25
Oracle 28
Petra 27
Porcelain Tower 22
Pyramids 26
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 22
Stonehenge 23
Sydney Opera House 17
Taj Mahal 18

Downvote for great lighthouse. Too map dependent, and even on archipelago I think I would rather priorities the colossus or hanging garden... Maybe there is something I don't see?

+1 Leaning Tower for the double wonder effect!
 
Alhambra 20
Big Ben 24
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 25
Colossus 9
Cristo Redentor 13
Eiffel Tower 24
Forbidden Palace 12
Great Library 22
Great Lighthouse 16
Great Mosque of Djenne 12
Great Wall 0
Hagia Sophia 23
Himeji Castle 21
Hanging Gardens 24
Hubble 27
Leaning Tower of Pisa 23
Louvre 24
Machu Picchu 22
Neuschwanstein Castle 23
Notre Dame 25
Oracle 28
Petra 27
Porcelain Tower 22
Pyramids 26
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 22
Stonehenge 23
Sydney Opera House 17
Taj Mahal 18

Great Mosque of Djenne - Why make a missionary when your enhancer and third great prophet will convert all of your cities.

Firstly it depends what your enhancer is, secondly you want to convert AI cities as well, thirdly Interfaith Dialogue, fourthly as someone above mentioned the Great Prophet apparently also gets an extra use, and fifthly see my above. The missionary effect can even be seen as a minor bonus for a Wonder that gives you an effective +6 faith, +4 culture and +1 happiness without preventing you building a Temple.

EDIT: Captured the GM from Egypt in my latest game. It didn't have any effect on Great Prophets - I think the person who observed that might have thought Prophets only naturally have three conversions rather than four.

Incidentally, has there been a patch to affect GPs? I'm sure a single use used to both remove the existing religion and install yours, but in this game I had to use them once to remove the enemy religion and once to spread my own to the same target.

Day four:

Alhambra 20
Big Ben 24
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 25
Colossus 9
Cristo Redentor 13
Eiffel Tower 24
Forbidden Palace 12
Great Library 22
Great Lighthouse 14
Great Mosque of Djenne 13
Hagia Sophia 21
Himeji Castle 21
Hanging Gardens 24
Hubble 27
Leaning Tower of Pisa 24
Louvre 24
Machu Picchu 22
Neuschwanstein Castle 23
Notre Dame 25
Oracle 28
Petra 27
Porcelain Tower 22
Pyramids 26
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 22
Stonehenge 23
Sydney Opera House 17
Taj Mahal 18

Great Mosque of Djenne: Breaking my self-imposed rule of voting for a different Wonder each day so I can give different reasons each time, again because this doesn't deserve to die as quickly as many on the list. It's by no means the game's best Wonder, but is very valuable for certain strategies - and who doesn't want an extra 100+ science per Missionary?

Hagia Sophia: I've run out of Wonders that I dislike but haven't yet voted for, so I'll stick with the Theology Wonders. I've already given various reasons for considering this the weaker of the two, and in general I prefer Wonders with long-term benefits to one-off GP pops. Not a bad Wonder particularly, but not one I'd take over Djenne, and certainly not one I'd consider the equal of Stonehenge, Macchu Picchu or the Porcelain Tower as the voting's currently showing.
 
Alhambra 20
Big Ben 24
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 25
Colossus 7
Cristo Redentor 13
Eiffel Tower 24
Forbidden Palace 12
Great Library 22
Great Lighthouse 14
Great Mosque of Djenne 13
Hagia Sophia 21
Himeji Castle 21
Hanging Gardens 24
Hubble 27
Leaning Tower of Pisa 24
Louvre 24
Machu Picchu 22
Neuschwanstein Castle 23
Notre Dame 25
Oracle 28
Petra 27
Porcelain Tower 22
Pyramids 26
Sistine Chapel 21
Statue of Liberty 22
Stonehenge 23
Sydney Opera House 17
Taj Mahal 18

Colossus is virtually impossible to get on immortal+. The gold over the cost of a game is undervalued, but the sacrifices you make by beelining iron working are significant.

SC on the other hand is easy to get and is quite powerful. Wonders that affect every city are great, and extra culture is handy for any VC.
 
Alhambra 20
Big Ben 24
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 25
Colossus 5
Cristo Redentor 13
Eiffel Tower 24
Forbidden Palace 12
Great Library 22
Great Lighthouse 14
Great Mosque of Djenne 13
Hagia Sophia 21
Himeji Castle 21
Hanging Gardens 24
Hubble 27
Leaning Tower of Pisa 24
Louvre 24
Machu Picchu 22
Neuschwanstein Castle 23
Notre Dame 25
Oracle 28
Petra 28
Porcelain Tower 22
Pyramids 26
Sistine Chapel 21
Statue of Liberty 22
Stonehenge 23
Sydney Opera House 17
Taj Mahal 18

-2 to the Colossus: Much weaker than the Great Lighthouse and on the wrong upgrade path for a water map. It's really only useful for a land based game where your capital started on the water with water resources.

+1 to the Petra: Both powerful and unique bonus, makes me consider new city placements on its own. A really nice addition.
 
Alhambra 20
Big Ben 24
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 25
Colossus 5
Cristo Redentor 13
Eiffel Tower 24
Forbidden Palace 12
Great Library 22
Great Lighthouse 14
Great Mosque of Djenne 13
Hagia Sophia 21
Himeji Castle 21
Hanging Gardens 25
Hubble 27
Leaning Tower of Pisa 24
Louvre 24
Machu Picchu 22
Neuschwanstein Castle 23
Notre Dame 25
Oracle 28
Petra 28
Porcelain Tower 22
Pyramids 26
Sistine Chapel 21
Statue of Liberty 22
Stonehenge 23
Sydney Opera House 17
Taj Mahal 16

Hanging Gardens are great because of extra growth, I also like the free garden a lot.

Taj Mahal: Golden Ages are always nice, but the one-time effect is rarely worth the effort and the risk of wasted production.
 
Alhambra 20
Big Ben 24
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 25
Colossus 5
Cristo Redentor 13
Eiffel Tower 25 (+1)
Forbidden Palace 12
Great Library 22
Great Lighthouse 14
Great Mosque of Djenne 13
Hagia Sophia 21
Himeji Castle 21
Hanging Gardens 25
Hubble 27
Leaning Tower of Pisa 24
Louvre 24
Machu Picchu 22
Neuschwanstein Castle 23
Notre Dame 25
Oracle 28
Petra 28
Porcelain Tower 22
Pyramids 26
Sistine Chapel 21
Statue of Liberty 22
Stonehenge 23
Sydney Opera House 17
Taj Mahal 14 (-2)
 
Alhambra 20
Big Ben 24
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 25
Colossus 5
Cristo Redentor 13
Eiffel Tower 25
Forbidden Palace 12
Great Library 22
Great Lighthouse 14
Great Mosque of Djenne 13
Hagia Sophia 21
Himeji Castle 21
Hanging Gardens 25
Hubble 27
Leaning Tower of Pisa 24
Louvre 24
Machu Picchu 22
Neuschwanstein Castle 23
Notre Dame 25
Oracle 28
Petra 29
Porcelain Tower 22
Pyramids 26
Sistine Chapel 21
Statue of Liberty 22
Stonehenge 23
Sydney Opera House 17
Taj Mahal 14

On post 215 crawf0rd has petra colored green, but didint ever actually give it the 1 upvote
 
Alhambra 20
Big Ben 24
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 25
Colossus 5
Cristo Redentor 13
Eiffel Tower 25
Forbidden Palace 12
Great Library 22
Great Lighthouse 14
Great Mosque of Djenne 14 (+1)
Hagia Sophia 21
Himeji Castle 21
Hanging Gardens 25
Hubble 27
Leaning Tower of Pisa 24
Louvre 24
Machu Picchu 22
Neuschwanstein Castle 21 (-2)
Notre Dame 25
Oracle 28
Petra 29
Porcelain Tower 22
Pyramids 26
Sistine Chapel 21
Statue of Liberty 22
Stonehenge 23
Sydney Opera House 17
Taj Mahal 14

The Great Mosque deserves more love in my opinion. Not only does it have great base stats in faith and culture, but it will also increase the strength of your missionaries by 50% (3 conversions instead of 2), so if your religion requires spreading this is your wonder. GMoD is for the civ that already has a strong faith generation going, while HS is for the civ that will struggle to get a second (or first) prophet out.

Neuschwanstein Castle I just rarely find the need to build this wonder, not only do I rarely build castles, you also need to be close to mountains to build it. Great wonder but rarely used in my games.
 
Alhambra 20
Big Ben 24
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 25
Colossus 5
Cristo Redentor 13
Eiffel Tower 25
Forbidden Palace 12
Great Library 22
Great Lighthouse 14
Great Mosque of Djenne 14
Hagia Sophia 21
Himeji Castle 21
Hanging Gardens 25
Hubble 27
Leaning Tower of Pisa 24
Louvre 24
Machu Picchu 22
Neuschwanstein Castle 21
Notre Dame 25
Oracle 29
Petra 27
Porcelain Tower 22
Pyramids 26
Sistine Chapel 21
Statue of Liberty 22
Stonehenge 23
Sydney Opera House 17
Taj Mahal 14

Petra : As good as it is, its also situational, often taken by the AI, and in part simply overcoming what is bad terrain to begin with.

Oracle : Can always put a free policy to use
 
Alhambra 20
Big Ben 24
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 25
Colossus 5
Cristo Redentor 13
Eiffel Tower 25
Forbidden Palace 12
Great Library 22
Great Lighthouse 14
Great Mosque of Djenne 14
Hagia Sophia 21
Himeji Castle 21
Hanging Gardens 25
Hubble 28
Leaning Tower of Pisa 24
Louvre 24
Machu Picchu 22
Neuschwanstein Castle 21
Notre Dame 25
Oracle 29
Petra 27
Porcelain Tower 22
Pyramids 26
Sistine Chapel 19
Statue of Liberty 22
Stonehenge 23
Sydney Opera House 17
Taj Mahal 14

Hubble is a must for fast science victories.

Sistine chapel is a must for cultural victories.

But why Hubble over Sistine? Because science victories are way more fun to play :goodjob:
 
Alhambra 20
Big Ben 24
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 25
Colossus 5
Cristo Redentor 13
Eiffel Tower 25
Forbidden Palace 12
Great Library 22
Great Lighthouse 14
Great Mosque of Djenne 14
Hagia Sophia 21
Himeji Castle 21
Hanging Gardens 25
Hubble 28
Leaning Tower of Pisa 24
Louvre 25 (+1)
Machu Picchu 22
Neuschwanstein Castle 19 (-2)
Notre Dame 25
Oracle 29
Petra 27
Porcelain Tower 22
Pyramids 26
Sistine Chapel 19
Statue of Liberty 22
Stonehenge 23
Sydney Opera House 17
Taj Mahal 14

Louvre is quite useful with a minmum 12 turns of golden age. Add in Chicen Itza/or play as Persia and an even greater advantage.

Haven't found a purpose yet thoguh for the castle
 
Alhambra 20
Big Ben 24
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 25
Colossus 5
Cristo Redentor 13
Eiffel Tower 25
Forbidden Palace 12
Great Library 22
Great Lighthouse 12 (-2)
Great Mosque of Djenne 14
Hagia Sophia 21
Himeji Castle 21
Hanging Gardens 25
Hubble 28
Leaning Tower of Pisa 24
Louvre 25
Machu Picchu 22
Neuschwanstein Castle 20 (+1)
Notre Dame 25
Oracle 29
Petra 27
Porcelain Tower 22
Pyramids 26
Sistine Chapel 19
Statue of Liberty 22
Stonehenge 23
Sydney Opera House 17
Taj Mahal 14

The only time I really get use out of the Great Lighthouse is when I capture a city with it built. And when that does happen I find it helpful navy wise but to me it's not worth trying to build.

Neuschwanstein is a personal favorite of mine. If I can build a good city by a mountain I can usually capture a city with one. It can be great when one the warpath since puppets tend to build defensive buildings. So the happiness can be useful the rest is just icing on the cake
 
Alhambra 20
Big Ben 24
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 25
Colossus 7
Cristo Redentor 13
Eiffel Tower 24
Forbidden Palace 12
Great Library 22
Great Lighthouse 14
Great Mosque of Djenne 13
Hagia Sophia 21
Himeji Castle 21
Hanging Gardens 24
Hubble 27
Leaning Tower of Pisa 24
Louvre 24
Machu Picchu 22
Neuschwanstein Castle 23
Notre Dame 25
Oracle 28
Petra 27
Porcelain Tower 22
Pyramids 26
Sistine Chapel 21
Statue of Liberty 22
Stonehenge 23
Sydney Opera House 17
Taj Mahal 18

Colossus is virtually impossible to get on immortal+. The gold over the cost of a game is undervalued, but the sacrifices you make by beelining iron working are significant.

I got it in the game I just finished (Immortal). It helped that I was Harald - so although I didn't exactly beeline Iron Working, I did go for it earlier than usual, and naturally I had a coastal location. Of course map size is a factor - I rolled a 4-civ map. On the other hand, one of those civs was Egypt and Thebes was coastal. I wasn't, however, up against any civs that had reason to go for the Iron Working path early.

+1 to the Petra: Both powerful and unique bonus, makes me consider new city placements on its own. A really nice addition.

Pet peeve time: Petra is the Biblical name of the city (rather, the Greek translation of the Hebrew name, both simply meaning "Stone"), it's not an individual monument. It's not "The Petra" any more than the British capital is "The London".

Neuschwanstein Castle I just rarely find the need to build this wonder, not only do I rarely build castles, you also need to be close to mountains to build it. Great wonder but rarely used in my games.

Took this one in the Danish game too, basically because there wasn't a reason not to and Aarhus was the most productive city on the planet (late in the game it completed Hubble in 9 turns and the UN in 17). Going Honor as the first tree gives a perfectly good incentive to go for castles - none of my cities was ever attacked (except for a lacklustre frigate shot at Ribe at one point), but the military building chain is a whole set of maintenance-free happiness buildings.

Petra : As good as it is, its also situational, often taken by the AI, and in part simply overcoming what is bad terrain to begin with.

The first two are true of any good Wonder, and the last one means you're using it wrong. You don't build Petra because you have a bit of desert lying about, you build it because you either start with or at an early stage select a site with a lot of desert hills, flood plains and/or oases/resources (and possibly the occasional desert Natural Wonder). It was certainly a contributor to the fact that Aarhus was such a productive city in my last game, as most of the terrestrial landscape was desert hills - one with sheep, another with copper, and a desert plain tile with iron to boot.

But why Hubble over Sistine? Because science victories are way more fun to play

I always find Hubble very satisfying to build, even though by the time you get it the fun bit of the science victory is largely over, and Hubble's basically a production boost more than a science one (although in my last game I got it at just the right time to rush both the final spaceship part techs, even though I ended up winning diplo victory first).
 
Alhambra 20
Big Ben 24
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 25
Colossus 3 (-2)
Cristo Redentor 13
Eiffel Tower 25
Forbidden Palace 12
Great Library 22
Great Lighthouse 12
Great Mosque of Djenne 14
Hagia Sophia 21
Himeji Castle 21
Hanging Gardens 25
Hubble 29 (+1)
Leaning Tower of Pisa 24
Louvre 25
Machu Picchu 22
Neuschwanstein Castle 20
Notre Dame 25
Oracle 29
Petra 27
Porcelain Tower 22
Pyramids 26
Sistine Chapel 19
Statue of Liberty 22
Stonehenge 23
Sydney Opera House 17
Taj Mahal 14

Colossus goes too fast, and... its a nice wonder to have, but its low on the list and you might want Machu or New Castle instead.

Hubble, as said, is the lifeblood for Science Vics!
 
Firstly it depends what your enhancer is, secondly you want to convert AI cities as well, thirdly Interfaith Dialogue, fourthly as someone above mentioned the Great Prophet apparently also gets an extra use, and fifthly see my above. The missionary effect can even be seen as a minor bonus for a Wonder that gives you an effective +6 faith, +4 culture and +1 happiness without preventing you building a Temple.

Great Mosque of Djenne: Breaking my self-imposed rule of voting for a different Wonder each day so I can give different reasons each time, again because this doesn't deserve to die as quickly as many on the list. It's by no means the game's best Wonder, but is very valuable for certain strategies - and who doesn't want an extra 100+ science per Missionary?

Great Mosque deserves more love in my opinion. Not only does it have great base stats in faith and culture, but it will also increase the strength of your missionaries by 50% (3 conversions instead of 2), so if your religion requires spreading this is your wonder. GMoD is for the civ that already has a strong faith generation going, while HS is for the civ that will struggle to get a second (or first) prophet out.

The only strategy I find it useful for is interfaith dialog and when I am going science I tend to avoid religion. Also Interfaith dialog was only given me 50beaker per conversion of a foreign religion so each missionary/prophet gets an extra 50beakers. The enhancer I get if Religious Text and Itinerant Preachers are taken is Messiah(Prophets 25% stronger and -25% less Faith), since it works better when I have a Tall civ. I tend to go tradition more often than liberty on emperor/immortal, so The Great Mosque is just not something I focus on getting in most games..
 
Alhambra 20
Big Ben 24
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 26
Colossus 3
Cristo Redentor 13
Eiffel Tower 25
Forbidden Palace 12
Great Library 22
Great Lighthouse 12
Great Mosque of Djenne 14
Hagia Sophia 21
Himeji Castle 21
Hanging Gardens 25
Hubble 27
Leaning Tower of Pisa 24
Louvre 25
Machu Picchu 22
Neuschwanstein Castle 20
Notre Dame 25
Oracle 29
Petra 27
Porcelain Tower 22
Pyramids 26
Sistine Chapel 19
Statue of Liberty 22
Stonehenge 23
Sydney Opera House 17
Taj Mahal 14

I guess what I'm currently wondering (;)) is what exactly are we voting about? Whether the wonders are fun? Do they add depth? Strategy? Is it good for the game balance? Or rather we personally just like them, even though we might they it's too strong, or possibly weak?

I vote down Hubble because I think it is too strong, and too important for a science victory (at least on Diety) I think it's bad for the game because theres not much choice or depth there.

Vote up Chichen Itza because a small amount of happiness, culture, and 50% Golden Age boost. Nothing game changing, but nothing to scoff at either. Good for gameplay!
 
The only strategy I find it useful for is interfaith dialog and when I am going science I tend to avoid religion. Also Interfaith dialog was only given me 50beaker per conversion of a foreign religion so each missionary/prophet gets an extra 50beakers. The enhancer I get if Religious Text and Itinerant Preachers are taken is Messiah(Prophets 25% stronger and -25% less Faith), since it works better when I have a Tall civ. I tend to go tradition more often than liberty on emperor/immortal, so The Great Mosque is just not something I focus on getting in most games..

I just used it extensively in my last game - Interfaith Dialogue + Holy Orders + 20+ pop holy cities. Most I got from one pop was 230 beakers, but almost all were above 100. With the lower cost and my high faith output, another missionary was en route while the first one was using its three conversions. My science trailed off after I stopped doing that (focused on saving faith for Great Scientists, which I think was a mistake).
 
Alhambra 20
Big Ben 24
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 26
Colossus 3
Cristo Redentor 11
Eiffel Tower 25
Forbidden Palace 12
Great Library 22
Great Lighthouse 12
Great Mosque of Djenne 14
Hagia Sophia 21
Himeji Castle 21
Hanging Gardens 25
Hubble 27
Leaning Tower of Pisa 24
Louvre 25
Machu Picchu 22
Neuschwanstein Castle 20
Notre Dame 25
Oracle 30
Petra 27
Porcelain Tower 22
Pyramids 26
Sistine Chapel 19
Statue of Liberty 22
Stonehenge 23
Sydney Opera House 17
Taj Mahal 14

+1 for the Oracle because it effectively always pays for your latest policy, gives 3 culture when that still matters, and is the only source for Great Scientist points other than the great Library by that point

-2 for Christo Redentor because it's too late and too expensive for the effect. Even if you beeline the tech, save a Great Engineer to build it quickly and save a couple of policies until you build it, it will only shave off 5-10 turns of a cultural victory you're about to get anyway.
It could be a very good wonder if they either increase the effect to at least 15% or make it cheaper to build and available with Steam Power...
 
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