Wonder-Spamming Choices based on Game Strategy

[Korias]

We haven't the same idea of efficiency I think How many troops can you build with the hammers you sunk into Versailles and Hermitage? Think about it...

And not to be annoying, but from a certain level, it's just impossible to flip AI cities... they spam so much troops that this idea is just an utopia...

Cheers

Well, there are a few ways to counteract that- Whip Overflow, Rushbuy, Draft- that will help out in getting those troops.

Though you probably have a better idea- I tend not to indulge myself above Emperor because I tend to get shut down easily.

 

[Inso]

It's a constant battle to keep my wonderspamming tendency under wraps.

Me too! Had a game recently where I was ind and had stone and marble in easy reach, no wonder was safe from my grasp. Missed out on a bit of good expansion because of this I think, but its so hard not to build them all especially with a hammer-heavy capital

 

[Ian Kognitow]

Building any ancient wonder has considerable value for culture victory. Having, say, Stonehenge producing 16 or Parthenon 20 for the last 1000-1500 years of the game is enormously valuable. With an IND leader--and obviously for those wonders helped by a resource--you should just be spamming early wonders outright if projecting for culture victory. In fact, one of my more common, and successful, strategies is to burn a great person--often the artist from getting Music first--for a golden age specifically to finish off classical-era wonders across multiple cities (say, for instance, parthenon, great library, and SoZ in 3 different cities). If spamming in such a way, culture victory is very easily achievable with negligible attention to religion and its need for spamming temples/cathedrals.

 

[Ian Kognitow]

Even if you got a GM from the SoL, Sid Sushi is a nice thing to have if you're going for cultural victory.

I practically find Sushi broken as far as being able to facilitate culture victory. I've even had easy culture victories with it where I literally never used the culture slider at all. With it very easy to just buy up the many, many spare seafood resources around the world, it's quite possible to have +50 or more base culture per sushi city. Then, supposing one has sistine chapel, all the extra population from the actual food properties of Sid's Sushi allows those cities to support a bunch of new specialists at 2 each.

 

[dalamb]

if the OP plays an industrious leader for domination, he should focus on spamming forges, not wonders. I posted in the first place because the OP speaks of being efficient with buildings, but then start to consider crappy wonders that are just waste of hammers.

Thanks for the tip about forges, but as to the rest -- I was aiming for a specific type of fun (for me), not necessarily the most efficient way to win, which almost certainly involves more warfare than I want in this specific game. As to "crappy wonders" -- as I said, I am only capable of playing at low levels; I only know a little about strengths and weaknesses of many of the wonders. I started this thread to summarize what I read elsewhere, and am certainly looking for advice to improve that first post -- especially all those "perhaps" clauses where I was guessing because I hadn't found appropriate advice yet.

 

[Silu]

I practically find Sushi broken as far as being able to facilitate culture victory. I've even had easy culture victories with it where I literally never used the culture slider at all. With it very easy to just buy up the many, many spare seafood resources around the world, it's quite possible to have +50 or more base culture per sushi city. Then, supposing one has sistine chapel, all the extra population from the actual food properties of Sid's Sushi allows those cities to support a bunch of new specialists at 2 each.

Suppose you had never teched beyond Lib&Nat you could have already won at the time when you incorporated Sid's Sushi. So not that broken IMO... Granted it's a safer way to a cultural vic.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Meanwhile, National epic is probably the closest to needed for any game plan.

Monarch player moving up to emperor and I only build NE in about 40% of my games. Unless I'm operating specialist-heavy econs, I have other things to build and I don't particularly like the Artist pollution especially if I'm only running 3 scientists or 4 merchants.

That being said, if operating a SSE/WE or heavy specialist econ (8+ in your main GP city), the NE is extremely desirable.

I don't think I've ever played a game where I didn't build the HE. Even peaceful games, I usually get the 10xp from barbs.

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

I started this thread to summarize what I read elsewhere, and am certainly looking for advice to improve that first post -- especially all those "perhaps" clauses where I was guessing because I hadn't found appropriate advice yet.

No problem playing for fun/flavor...But then wonders are all shiny thus needed

My take on wonders:

Widely usefull: you might add Iron Works here. It's always good except perhaps for cultural. It's mandatory to build late game wonders (usefull for hapiness in space race/diplo win), spam even more troops.
I think Internet is needed if you are behind only. Don't build this if you are ahead in the space race because the tech that unlocks it isn't needed to build parts.
For any games that last past renaissance, you want to build Wall Street in a shrine/corp city (well you can live without usually -for instance building wealth with factories in few cities allows 100% science slider- but it's a MUST HAVE when going for corporations).

Conquest/Domination: None are needed (except HE)!
Still nice to grab fast: Great Lib -> allows you to stay in the trade loop and have a shot at liberalism while your economy is destroyed by your constant troop spam
Stonehenge so you don't have to bother with monuments before COL/Music.
The Globe theater is a must when drafting. Heroic Epic should be an obsession.

Cultural: well, all help, providing culture. Though I like SH/Oracle because they are cheap and their culture output will double quickly, Parthenon to generate more artists and high cultural value. THe great library is usefull in a secondary GPfarm. It is usefull as it generates nice culture and allows fast bulbing of liberalism (your tech goal in culture victories). Finally the Sixtine Chapel is a MUST HAVE Usually I take nationalism (Hermitage) out of liberalism during cultural games, thus the Taj is a nice build as well.

Space: Great Library = faster liberalism time. Oracle too. Except those, I wouldn't focus on wonders during space games... you will launch faster if you conquier early. Avoid the mids unless stone AND room to expand.

If you manage to control a good amount of land by that time, the HGs/Mausoleum/Taj Mahal will be interesting as they can provide hammers (and not cost hammers... that's a change!)

Diplos: AP/UN. Not much to say... though I like to build the resource wonders when going for a diplo win: allows more trade (increased diplo modifiers) and more population. Cristo Redentor is nice too to switch into AI's favorite civics.

To sum up:

all games: Epics asap
games that last past medieval times: OU/IW asap

rest is up to you

Cheers,
Ras

 

[dalamb]

Changes in response to a discussion in Nobles' Club 109:

• Added Globe Theatre to Conquest section.
• Deprecated Space Elevator and Red Cross.
• Added Oracle to "generally useful"
• Added comment to the opening about conquering, and the effect of accelerators.

 

[Zx Zero Zx]

Dalamb you need to remove Oxford from useful, and put it in it's true category of an over rated over priced PoS. The bonus it provides is only helpful in 1 VC, and I seriously mean 1 VC. If you aren't going for Space don't bother wasting your time. The cost for Oxford is massive unless you are Phi, and have Stone. You would be better off building units to take vassals, and win the game via Dom or Diplo.

 

[iggymnrr]

For niche marathon space colony use, the Hagia Sophia. On the lower levels I've experimented with environmentalism-Cereal Mills games. There is considerable pressure to produce large numbers of workers that can windmill up. These windmills also have to be fed. Targeting medicine, refrigeration and the corp means other techs get ignored. Steam power comes so late that it has the effect of the Hagia in a normal game.

 

[WelshGandalf]

I've always thought of the Hanging Gardens as under-rated. Not that expensive if you have stone, and to make the most of it make sure you have lots of cities (settled or captured) before it is done. 1 free pop in all of them... at the base level that's at least 30 hammers in each city via slavery. If you have stone and at least 5 cities you get all your hammers back straight away using that methodology, plus the extra health, the culture and some rare great engineer points.

 

[Zx Zero Zx]

THG is an amazing one wonder, but the only problem with it is the AI almost always builds it first.

 

[vranasm]

THG is an amazing one wonder, but the only problem with it is the AI almost always builds it first.

this... wanted to post exactly this after reading Welsh's comment.

the problem here is that mathematics usually isn't good first bigger tech. It costs less then alpha/aesth and thus is useless to trade with it for alpha.

another problem is the need of aqueduct and I think it means masonry, so masonry+math and costs you almost as much beakers as alpha/aesth itself with less trade value.

the overall price of the wonder is steep too 100H aque (which usually is not needed in the timeframe) and 150H with stone THG without stone it would be absurd to build for the +1 health... costs basically the same as stoned Mids (250H)

 

[jarhead_leif]

Have you ever played a game where there's no single WorldWonder built by you.

 

[Zx Zero Zx]

Yes this happens all the time when I don't go for an Oracle slingshot. If I Oracle slingshot it is very often the only wonder I will ever build. Taking wonders > building, Hammer to Unit ratio > Hammer to Wonder ratio.

 

[dalamb]

Dalamb you need to remove Oxford from useful, and put it in it's true category of an over rated over priced PoS.

It's labeled where it is because I've seen a lot of people calling it essential for games where you tech much past Education -- which is mostly Space but not always or we'd never get late-game nuclear wars. IIRC you play at Deity; do other Deity players agree that they avoid Oxford for ZZZ's reasons?

THG is an amazing one wonder, but the only problem with it is the AI almost always builds it first.

This must depend on level, since I can usually get it at Monarch if I want it, which isn't always. The advice is meant to cover many levels. Perhaps I need to upgrade the first post with information about what levels you're likely to lose the wonders? I do link to other people's posts that go into more detail.

Have you ever played a game where there's no single WorldWonder built by you.

There might have been some, but they're likely rare since I'm still learning to overcome my Builder mindset and learn more Warmongering.

 

[Zx Zero Zx]

It's labeled where it is because I've seen a lot of people calling it essential for games where you tech much past Education -- which is mostly Space but not always or we'd never get late-game nuclear wars. IIRC you play at Deity; do other Deity players agree that they avoid Oxford for ZZZ's reasons?

I wouldn't say it's essential in any game, even Space. It is just helpful for space, with enough land you will be 1 turning a lot of the earlier techs with out it so it doesn't make a massive difference. Also when building it people need to realize that you are usually better off building quite a bit later than right when you get Edu. As in that time period if you are playing by standard play you need to be breaking out with units, so you shouldn't be wasting pop on Unis.

But my biggest problem with the Oxford, and how overrated it is, is the fact that people never ever take into account the amount of hammers the 6 Unis will cost you. This is an immense cost that does not pay itself off very quickly where as taking more land does.

I am not sure if a lot of the other deity players will agree with me though due to I also have a firm belief that Lib is an extremely overrated tech, and people should put more emphasis on getting more land earlier. But in comparison a lot of deities think that Lib is the best tech in the game, and you should always beeline it if you can.

This must depend on level, since I can usually get it at Monarch if I want it, which isn't always. The advice is meant to cover many levels. Perhaps I need to upgrade the first post with information about what levels you're likely to lose the wonders? I do link to other people's posts that go into more detail.

On Imm, and deity it is very difficult to get it. The Ai gets Math in the mid BCs, and will have it built shortly after. So if you try to get any other WW, like the Oracle which is much stronger at that stage in the game you will auto lose it. While on Emp, and bellow you can get pretty much every single wonder in the game, while also expanding well simply due to the AI not teching any where near as well as Imm.

 

[dalamb]

I originally didn't mean to convey in the OP that any of the wonders were "essential"; maybe I need to rephrase. The group that includes Oxford was meant to be "useful for multiple VCs." I'm a little reluctant to move Oxford to just Space. I can certainly mention the opportunity cost of the universities.

Also sounds like I need to say that getting most wonders is much more difficult at Deity and Immortal so you need to be choosy and expect failgold reasonably often.

 

[Zx Zero Zx]

Mm building a wonder for fail gold, and not the wonder itself is often a much much stronger play on deity. Also abusing Nat Wonders for fail gold is a broken mechanic.

I know you didn't mean to, I just saw an opportunity to get up on my soap box, and rant about Oxford. XD