Worst UU

I've mentioned this before, I"ll have to mention it again...

Even the sh!tty panzer has better odds at attacking (yes amphibious penalty) into a city with CR promotions, than that navy seal, despite the seal comes with no amphib penalty.

Nuff said...
 
That may be so, and I am not saying wether you're wrong or right, but first strikes aren't calculated in with the odds. I voted for the Balista Elephant by the way. Even if you have ivory, which is pretty rare, it isn't that great.
 
Left hand side is tank strength, right hand side is marine
28 / (defender x (1 + 0.50+defensive-cr) ) vs 24 x combat / (defender x ( 1 + defensive ) )
28 / 24 vs combat x (1+0.5+defensive-cr) / (1+defensive )
7 + 7 x defensive vs combat x (9 + 6 x defensive - 6 cr)
(7 - combat x 6 ) x defensive vs 9 x combat - 7 - 6 cr

Defensive is defensive bonus, combat is combat promotion strength multiplier (combat 1 is 1.1), defender strength doesn't matter, cr is city raider bonus (0.2 for cr1).

Combat 1 vs cr 1
0.4 x defensive vs 2.7 - 6 x 0.2
defensive vs 1.5 / 0.4 = 3.75
So CR 1 tanks are better than combat 1 seals if the defensive bonus exceeds 375%.

For combat 2 or greater, (7 - combat x 6 ) < 0, so the left hand side will be negative, so tanks will always be worse unless
9 x combat - 7 - 6 x cr < 0
At cr 3, that is
11.7 - 7 - 6 x 0.75 = 0.2, so 2 promotion and 2 promotion tanks will always be worse at attacking cities than 2 promotion to 3 promotion marines.
 
First strikes are given consideration for the odds calculations.

They just don't all that much there, at least not in fair fights between healthy units. They are most useful for other things like reducing expected damage taken against a weaker opponent, greater reliability of damaging a much stronger opponent at all, better odds and less damage taken against wounded units.
 
Can someone explain to me why the Holkan doesn't belong in this discussion?
 
Can someone explain to me why the Holkan doesn't belong in this discussion?

It is resourseless and can be built to defend vs Immortal, War Chariot and Keshik rushes. It can ignore archer first strikes (Keshik too) when it rushes.
That makes it useful in my book.

It is not the best unit, but, I have rushed with it, within the past 2 weeks on Monarch and defeated 2 Empires, before needing swordsmen on the next.

Maya overall, is probably one of the most balanced Empires, with health happiness and FIN trait, and can survive in difficult times early on, like Mali and Native American.
 
Holkan: A resourceless 4 str unit, what's not to like? Better than the jaguar in that respect because BW is something you generally have in good time to defend against barbs. Pacal is one of the leaders who can almost always forget archery for a while. What's more it replaces the spearman so it doesn't compromise your ability to build axes if you do have copper, like the dog soldier does.
 
Can someone explain to me why the Holkan doesn't belong in this discussion?

The Holcan is one of the weaker UU's to be sure. But it's resourceless and gives you a small advantage with first strike immunity.

The Holcan however, is never a detriment or a complete non-factor. For me, the worst UU would be a complete non-factor or one that is weaker than the base unit.

An example of a non-factor would be the SEAL. It sounds nice with free promos, first strikes. Problem is, he comes in at the same time as tanks for only 10 hammers less. I've never considered building SEAL's instead of tanks. Maybe an American OCC before I can get Standard Ethanol.

An example of weaker is the Dog Soldier. I hate lower base strength. He's slightly better than standard against melee and weaker against everything else. SB can always build his super-archers instead.
 
I think that the argument that the UU comes too late in the game is valid, but it should be removed from argument mainly because most players start and finish their games well before they come along. If you play the later starts then the timeline it takes to get the later UU's (seals, panzers,) gets shorter and those units can actually get some use/life. As a side note though, if you play an unmodded game and pick the later era starts you can get a sense of just how shorted the later eras are in terms of diversity.

Anyway, I think the carrack blows and is the worst. Frankly I think each civ ought to have two UU seperated by an era or two but whatever.
 
Carrack pwns on terra maps.

At least it would if it wasn't for "colonial expenses".

Does anyone really use the Berserker amphibious bonus?

My main use of its bonus, is keeping them around to upgrade to infantry and mech infantry-> then Seals can suck it.

Mech infantry get free march, are stronger than seals, and if they get a free amphib, why would you use seals?


I'm modded the American civ to have multiple late game UUs.

Fighter replaced by P-51-> free operational range 1 promotion-> its not much, but hey, it means you may not rebase as often, and can make the difference between having air support or not.
Aircraft carrier UU holds 4, not 3 fighters, 20 strength- > again, not much, but there is some synergy with the P-51.

Germany: also gets an Me-262 UU, 18 strength, not 12 - in a class of its own (does not replace fighter) and needs rocketry and radio in addition to normal fighter requirements.

If there are going to be mediochre late game UUs, why not have multiple mediochre late game UUs, so at least there is a cumulative effect.
 
I'm modded the American civ to have multiple late game UUs.

Fighter replaced by P-51-> free operational range 1 promotion-> its not much, but hey, it means you may not rebase as often, and can make the difference between having air support or not.
Aircraft carrier UU holds 4, not 3 fighters, 20 strength- > again, not much, but there is some synergy with the P-51.

Germany: also gets an Me-262 UU, 18 strength, not 12 - in a class of its own (does not replace fighter) and needs rocketry and radio in addition to normal fighter requirements.

If there are going to be mediochre late game UUs, why not have multiple mediochre late game UUs, so at least there is a cumulative effect.
The bolded might be valid, IF the bonuses you modded in were anywhere close to mediocre. Free Range 1 on Fighters is an enormous boost, as is a capacity increase fo Carriers. Carriers and Fighters are already a game ending combo, theres no way boosting them for every role can be considered mediocre.
 
Me-262 is interesting, but also historically the airships could also be a UU.
 
Marines are better in every possible situation too.
First strikes and march, yet people complain.

Free range 1 is an enormous boost?
Better than 1-2 first strikes and march?
Its situational...
It does not affect an individual round of combat one bit.
It only has an effect if the enemy you want to attack is just 1 tile further away than max range.
1-6 tiles away: useless, no advantage over the normal fighter.
8 tiles away: useless, out of range.
The way I see it, the times when it will be in range, but wouldn't be in range for normal units, is really really small.

And then if you do happen to have an enemy 7 tiles away, its only a real advantage if they don't have fighters themselves, otherwise the two fighters square off evenly matched. The resulting number of "free hits" is really small.

Considering all the hate of the east indiamen, just for having 1 extra spot (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=9976382#post9976382 though they neglect it is also the strongest naval combat unit of its era) - how much does 1 extra fighter really matter?
Say I want to field 12 jet fighters/ 12 fighters:
Thats 1,800 or 1,200 in hammers for the fighters, and 525 hammers for carriers if they hold 4 fighters, 700 if they hold 3.

(1,200+700)/(1,200+525)= 1.10 -> 10% cheaper with fighters,
(1,800+700)/(1,800+525)= 1.075 -> 7.5% cheaper with jet fighters...
Then consider the enemy only needs to kill 1 unit to take out 4 fighters, its "more eggs in one basket"

Is that really a huge bonus? how often do carriers see that much use anyway?
What if I proportionately increased the cost of the carrier (by 4/3), and then the only difference is its strength is halfway between a transport and a submarine?
Then there is no cost effectiveness advantage (except maybe miniscule unit cost/supply saving), and it simply a matter of fewer, but more resistant targets to eliminate enemy air cover.

If either one of those was America's UU in the game, everyone would be complaining about it.

Or are you saying either one of those proposed UU's would be preferable to the navy seal?

Both would come about as late in the game, one would obsolete unlike the seal.
 
Carrack pwns on terra maps.

At least it would if it wasn't for "colonial expenses".

Does anyone really use the Berserker amphibious bonus?

My main use of its bonus, is keeping them around to upgrade to infantry and mech infantry-> then Seals can suck it.

Mech infantry get free march, are stronger than seals, and if they get a free amphib, why would you use seals?


I'm modded the American civ to have multiple late game UUs.

Fighter replaced by P-51-> free operational range 1 promotion-> its not much, but hey, it means you may not rebase as often, and can make the difference between having air support or not.
Aircraft carrier UU holds 4, not 3 fighters, 20 strength- > again, not much, but there is some synergy with the P-51.

Germany: also gets an Me-262 UU, 18 strength, not 12 - in a class of its own (does not replace fighter) and needs rocketry and radio in addition to normal fighter requirements.

If there are going to be mediochre late game UUs, why not have multiple mediochre late game UUs, so at least there is a cumulative effect.

I hate noobs that make their game inbalanced by giving only a few civs multiple UU's. Now Germany and US are overpowered. If you are going to give out multi-UU's, at least do every civ in the game.
 
I hate noobs that make their game inbalanced by giving only a few civs multiple UU's. Now Germany and US are overpowered. If you are going to give out multi-UU's, at least do every civ in the game.
That's a bit harsh, don't you think? Hating someone just for making a mod that you don't approve of seems a bit over the top to me.

In my opinion, it would be better to buff the underpowered UU rather than add extra ones; but balance isn't the reason for me, I just like the symmetry of each civ having just one UU. Balance is important but I don't think the civs in this game were balanced in the first place. Having navy seals as well as P-51s probably still isn't as useful as having praetorians or vultures.

(I actually think navy seals are strong enough as they are; but that's beside the point. The point is that the game is not finely balanced. Some civs are more powerful than others. So I don't think people should worry too much about tinkering with the balance in their own personal mod. Just do what you think would make the game better.)
 
UUs that are extremely situational (Jaguar)

I'm not aware of any Immortal players even who consider the Jag to be just extremely situational. Unless you ONLY play isolated maps.... And even then it can have some use.... Unless you ONLY play with no barb-city maps....
 
I hate noobs that make their game inbalanced by giving only a few civs multiple UU's. Now Germany and US are overpowered. If you are going to give out multi-UU's, at least do every civ in the game.

Actually, most civs in the mod I play myself do have multiple UU.
That will be the 2nd part of my post.

As long as one plays an ancient start, it can't be OPd if the game ends before either civ builds any UB or UU.
The SEAL won't matter(much if at all). A fighter UU wont matter (much if at all), a Tank UU won't matter(much if at all), and a Jet UU halfway between the fighter and jet fighter - in abilities and tech - becoming the latest UU, won't matter much if at all.

Consider the impact of early praetorians, or a mali mint (+ skirmishers) - the building UU advantage lasts the whole game.
Consider *value of advantage per turn* x *Number of turns you have the advantage*
The American and german UBs compare horribly.
If the game ends 10 turns after industrialism, the UUs compare horribly.
If you consider the gains made with early UUs, their advantage continues to last the rest of the game. Even if the game ends just as you get to future tech, those extra cities gained early on by praetorians are not going to be countered by extra range on a fighter, extra space on a carrier, or first strikes+march on a marine.

The later they come, the stronger the benefits need to be, and we in fact see that the Seal+ Panzer are in fact the latest UUs, with some of the most inconsequential advantages.


A few other bits of info about the mod:

The English get a longbowman (old longbowman replaced with heavy archer), that basically also fulfills the role of the crossbowman (see battle of Crecy).

They also get the East Indiaman, as Britain used that ship type as well, and most of the demonstrations of their combat capability, were done with british ships (see battle of Pulo Aura).

Meanwhile, many forget that the Byzantine empire *was* the Roman Empire.

Cataphracts *and* Praetorians! oh my!

Meanwhile the Native American Empire, already admittedly a fictional construct, is merged with the Aztecs who also occupied North America (and in one version, the Maya and Inca as well, but *that* was OPd)

China gets the Hwacha - It had gunpowder and rocket propelled arrows first, even if it didn't design the Hwacha.

The distinction of the German + Americans in that mod, was that their UUs were all in the same era, as opposed to Praetorians and Cataphracts, or redcoats and English Longbowmen.

I also merged Germany with the HRE, but the Landsknecht obviously does not belong in the same era as Panzers and jets.
I'm also contemplating a U-boat UU.
 
Carracks are pretty neat actually. Most who don't like them are not aware of their unique war capability.

Probably the main dislike of Dog Soldiers is they render SB very useless in early warfare as far as rushing. However, it's funny that in reverse we dread rushing SB early because of Dogs. Actually a pretty good unit on higher levels. Resourceless is always nice.

Same with Holkans. While not a "wow!" unit, they are very solid for their time. Pacal is one of my favorite leaders and generally underrated.
 
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