[WTP] Quick questions

[XSamatan]

I like the random approach - it is a surprise gift if a festival happened.

 

[stefmaster]

Hi

Once again I got another question:
Whenever playing WTP with highest Resolution 3840 x 2160 the mouse cursor has no effect on the outline map! I am not used to!
So it is impossible to change postition by mose-klicking at the globe on the left side! It only works like before with lower resultion!
Is that a bug?
Its a little boring to change postion only by scrolling at he bottom of the playing screen especially on gigantic maps

 

[raystuttgart]

It only works like before with lower resultion!
Is that a bug?

Yes, and it is a known bug.

We did not have time to fix it yet. Although we have plans to take care of it - it is lots of effort though.
(It would need complete reconstruction of the World Map as e.g. a "square" instead of a "globe".

The Globe / Worldmap does not work with such high resolutions currently, you need to chose lower resolutions.
The game was built in 2008 and in those times such resolutions were unknown.

 

[Buffalo Solider]

I was playing this fantastic mod once again after break and it is wonderful

However I have one small complain/issue regarding balance. West Indians are too much superior in comparation to Corvettes to justify Corvette being more expensive in European docks.
Corvettes are : slightly stronger against privaters, (38 strength vs 38.5 (35+10%)) and are slightly faster, but they are weaker in straight combat (during war, so vs non-privaters) and west Indians have 5 cargo spaces which is absolutely huge atut/advantage. Last thing is - they have 10% more chance to retreat from battle.. This is quite significant during offensive encounters, so maybe that was what made them more expensive in the end...
Over-all I don't see situation, where I would buy Corvette before buying at least 2-3 West Indians and their price rising significantly.

My bigest problem is, even if I'm threatened by pirates and their only role is to counter pirates, I still don't buy it. Ships only have 3 roles. Escort, War, Trade and Corvette is worse in all 3.

Only use when they are better is... Actively looking for pirates.. If they were good against pirates, then this one use-case, could make them better choice at least sometimes. Perhaps they should have +20% against pirates (as they have in description. But in game they have +10%. I guess it was small balance touch to make them weaker, that made them totally useless). +20% against pirates, and they are great.
Or maybe corvettes could have + 1 visibility range? That would work great together with their 6 speed, they would be good for area-protecting missions.

Now - it is important that price is very close to being balanced. I think if anything - west indians could be a little bit more expensive. perhaps 3800 for first ship. ( I don't know if I have some merchant ship discount, maybe, because my first galleon was 2700 and west indian was 3150 (instead of 3500?) But even if it was for 3500, it would be too cheap compared to all-in-all worse corvette for 3600.

My biggest problem is - ship made to fight pirates is not better at fighting pirates, than merchant ship.
And second problem - that merchant ship, can just stright-up attack and win vs that "warship" all while being cheaper to buy.

I think balance of ships is over-all pretty good, but that difference was most striking for me, to the point that I had to write about it

Do corvettes have something else going for them? Maybe I overlooked something? Maybe warships have better promotions available? Maybe they have some un-obvious advantage? I think if maps were big enough, they could catch pirates, that are fleeing, as pirates have 5 speed and they have 6 speed, but to be honest, pirates usually are 2-3 turns away from their home port, so catching them in active persuit is not possible. Maybe ships should be slowed with damage? That would be great! Pirates could be than hunted down, as after sinking caravel, they would have slight damage and say have only 3/4 speed.

 

[raystuttgart]

I think balance of ships is over-all pretty good, but that difference was most striking for me, to the point that I had to write about it

Thanks, I will have a look at the balancing and correct it.

 

[ConjurerDragon]

...
However I have one small complain/issue regarding balance. West Indians are too much superior in comparation to Corvettes to justify Corvette being more expensive in European docks.

Which is one reason that West Indiamen should be available only later, say in the 2nd half of the game. And not compete with Caravels which should be the only vessels available in the 15th century. Regardless if it´s ages that advance simply by time or technology levels that need to be achieved.

Corvettes are : slightly stronger against privaters, (38 strength vs 38.5 (35+10%)) and are slightly faster, but they are weaker in straight combat (during war, so vs non-privaters) and west Indians have 5 cargo spaces which is absolutely huge atut/advantage. Last thing is - they have 10% more chance to retreat from battle.. This is quite significant during offensive encounters, so maybe that was what made them more expensive in the end...
Over-all I don't see situation, where I would buy Corvette before buying at least 2-3 West Indians and their price rising significantly.

My bigest problem is, even if I'm threatened by pirates and their only role is to counter pirates, I still don't buy it. Ships only have 3 roles. Escort, War, Trade and Corvette is worse in all 3.

How about fast explorer or clipper?
The Corvette is the fastest ship and with some promotions can either be a trade clipper that really quickly delivers it´s 1 cargo space (e.g. to deliver stuff to small outposts far away that would not be able to fill a ship with 5 cargo holds. Or it can be the fastest explorer to reap in exploration points, gather goodies on water. Or the fast pirate hunter that continues to search out and fight pirates to advance the admiral points while the West Indiamen actually puts his cargo spaces to use and transports something.

 

[raystuttgart]

Thanks, I will have a look at the balancing and correct it.

Ok, I adjusted the balancing for now.

• Westindiaman has been made a bit more expensive.
• Corvette and Frigate have been mad a bit cheaper.

Westindiaman is now more expensive than Corvette.

------

It should be good enough for now.
(i.e. Westindiaman will not be bought instead of a Corvette or even a Frigate because of strength).

The ships in "Plains" have been massively rebalanced anyways when all the new ships were added.
(And at some point we will probably also completely adjust all the pricing again.)

 

[Nightinggale]

The Globe / Worldmap does not work with such high resolutions currently, you need to chose lower resolutions.
The game was built in 2008 and in those times such resolutions were unknown.

Essentially the game is written for 1024x768 and then it stretches to fill the screen. The minimap has a known bug once it fills too many pixels, but the rest of the 2D also suffers from stretching, mainly by not making proper use of the extra screen space. There is (and perhaps most importantly) an issue with the colony plots in the colony screen on wide screen and in particular ultra widescreen. While most if not all of this is fixable, it essentially means rewriting the UI meaning it's one screen at a time. This will take a while.

There are some parts in the UI we can't resize, such as text size and size of popup windows. 4K will indeed result in tiny popup windows and there is nothing we can do about that.

Personally I wouldn't recommend using resolutions larger than 1440 pixels in height. Perhaps 1600 pixels if that is the height of your monitor. I have never seen that myself though.

 

[Buffalo Solider]

How about fast explorer or clipper?
The Corvette is the fastest ship and with some promotions can either be a trade clipper that really quickly delivers it´s 1 cargo space (e.g. to deliver stuff to small outposts far away that would not be able to fill a ship with 5 cargo holds.

Sloop is absolutely unbeatable in role of clipper/explorer, but anyways, I always have 1 gigantic city and then make like 5-6 smaller cities around it and they gather a lot of cash resources. All those smaller cities transport goods with treks and big costal ships to my "capital" from which I always have like 500-1000 tons of goods to take out, so clippers are not interesting for me.
Also I usually have to spend all gold on tonnage of ships as my country grows too quickly to buy non-cargo ships ( I usually play as English and get absurdally heavy immigration, everyone work on fields producing low-value, heavy cargo ). Thats why after I lost 1 caravel and 1 fluite to pirate ship, I looked for long in european port and I decided that west indian is too good to be true. It's super strong and has great capacity. I actually hunted down that pirate later on, as he attacked my brigantine and had to retreat (another fantastic and very cheap ship) and it just happened that he was still in range of that brigantine as he was trying to run away. Over all merchant ships are super powerful... Maybe they could stay strong, but get like -16% for every cargo they have (like in orginal colonization), than it would be more interesting. Maybe -16% per cargo is a bit too hard (especially on galeon), but I don't know ... Some system like that could be interesting.

I think another idea of yours is actually very good

Which is one reason that West Indiamen should be available only later, say in the 2nd half of the game. And not compete with Caravels which should be the only vessels available in the 15th century. Regardless if it´s ages that advance simply by time or technology levels that need to be achieved.

Maybe ships could be split into 3 epochs,
1492-1550(only caravela redonda/caravel/fluyt/corvette/(pirate sloop?)),
1550-1650(privater/frigate/carrack/galleon/merchantman)
and >1650 (ship of line (upgraded frigate)/west indian (upgraded galleon) /brigantine(upgraded merchantman) ).
That together with some minus (maybe -5%/cargo slot?) could result in very interesting gameplay.
In this setup corvette would be the best and only clear answer to pirate sloop in early game. Pirate sloop would have to be very affraid of corvette.
In second age there would be privateer. It would be very afraid of frigates, but able to compete (50/50) with corvette and scary for all merchant ships (especially outdated)
Then in 3rd age there would be pirate frigate (bought - as now - in port royale). It would be very strong (maybe only a bit weaker than regular frigate) and it would be able to crack defences of all un-escorted merchant ships! Only protection of frigate with experienced crew, or ship of line would suffice against it. But such powerful ship as pirate frigate should be expensive. Maybe a bit more expensive than frigate, while being a bit weaker than frigate. That all would be price for it's hidden nationality.

 

[raystuttgart]

Maybe -16% per cargo is a bit too hard (especially on galeon), but I don't know ... Some system like that could be interesting.

Actually in fact an interesting idea.

Maybe ships could be split into 3 epochs,

The "WTP Tech System" is still planned, it is just not yet realized.
Thus I really do not want to implement a conflicting system we would later throw away.

 

[nci]

Maybe ships could be split into 3 epochs,

I believe locking content like ships behind eras or scientific progress can only hurt gameplay, and basically pisses ship diversity away. Player freedom from restrictive mechanics like that was always the beauty of Colonization, why ruin it?

 

[Buffalo Solider]

I believe locking content like ships behind eras or scientific progress can only hurt gameplay, and basically pisses ship diversity away. Player freedom from restrictive mechanics like that was always the beauty of Colonization, why ruin it?

Yeah, maybe that's true. As I said before, I'm pretty happy with current balance. On the other hand, I feel like some ships totally outclass other ships.
Theres big lack of pirate ships for sure. Pirate frigate is almost the same as privateer and these are only 2 to choose from. My idea of "pirate sloop" would on one hand add some variety, but on the other hand I think it would be terrible ship, unworthy of buying. If used as clipper/explorer - it would die from first met european power ship, if used as pirate - at one point it would meet some medium-class merchant and that merchant would just wipe it out, as sloop really can only fight low-class merchant ships... Maybe it could be invisible (like submarines in civ IV) to ships other than corvette/regular sloop, to simulate being too fast to catch... Ok, perhaps I'm galoping too far with ideas hahah.

 

[nci]

@Buffalo Solider a Pirate Cutter is incoming, which is weaker than sloop but still super interesting.

If used as clipper/explorer - it would die from first met european power ship

With upgrades, fast low-powered ships can fight off powerful ones easily - and you better use a fleet of such ships, instead of just one. Combat-capable merchant ships are best upgraded for additional cargo slot, that makes them 20% weaker - although not sure if AI follows that logic.

if used as pirate - at one point it would meet some medium-class merchant and that merchant would just wipe it out

You very much underestimate such ships. Their low strength adds a lot of value, allowing to turn them into Great Admiral factories when they are successful. It is a high risk - high reward situation.

Maybe it could be invisible (like submarines in civ IV) to ships other than corvette/regular sloop, to simulate being too fast to catch...

Such a ship can retreat to native villages or high seas, no point making it even more powerful.

I absolutely agree that Corvette is on the weak side, however. I believe Corvette should be made cheaper and its attack bonus against Privateers increased to 20% to match Colopedia and differentiate from Brig of War, while Frigate price should remain the same. Brig of War, in my opinion, does not need a bonus against Privateers & Pirate Frigates at all - it is way too powerful as it is.

 

[Buffalo Solider]

I absolutely agree that Corvette is on the weak side, however. I believe Corvette should be made cheaper (and/or its attack bonus against Privateers increased to 20% to match Colopedia and differentiate from Brig of War), while Frigate price should remain the same.

Yeah, I thought exactly same. If their bonus was 20% as it states in colopedia, then... it would be very decent ship. Sure, it would have mainly one use - hunting pirates, but it would be very good at it.

You very much underestimate such ships. Their low strength adds a lot of value, allowing to turn them into Great Admiral factories when they are successful. It is a high risk - high reward situation.

As for that, maybe I can agree - I underrated ships with slightly lower power.. Weak ships are terrible for defense scenarios and they can't escort (AI will choose merchant to fight first, because it has more power)... But perhaps group of few (3-4-5) sloops is best way to clear pirates.. They can cover much ground (7 speed), and they can either - attack 2vs1 and (likely) sink pirate, or attack 1vs1, run away, and hide behind merchant ship, so pirate must return for repairs, because he is too weakened to attack. I always have few merchant ships on sea, so there will be a lot of cover for second scenario operation.

Hmm, sloops might be my new ship of interest. They are really good for doing what corvette can't do. And - besides - right as I bought my first frigate, king took it for berber pirates mission, hah

a Pirate Cutter is incoming, which is weaker than sloop but still super interesting.

Oh, I've not noticed this part. I can not wait for update I'm sure it will be amazing. If that Cutter will have high chances of running away, than even if he's weak, he will be very good.
Wow, actually all new ships from this post are amazing.

 

[nci]

@Buffalo Soldier Sloop is also fantastic as a transport ship, since it's the only ship to enter large rivers, and 2 cargo slots ain't too bad on the fastest ship in the game. Schooner makes a very viable alternative when navigating rivers is not a concern, however.

I love the new ships as well, and can't wait for the update to arrive. However, I fear Brig of War makes Corvette practically useless, thus needs to be stripped of its bonus against pirates, with changes to Corvette described above to make it at least somewhat viable.

 

[ConjurerDragon]

I believe locking content like ships behind eras or scientific progress can only hurt gameplay, and basically pisses ship diversity away. Player freedom from restrictive mechanics like that was always the beauty of Colonization, why ruin it?

So - in the same vein want some Tiger tanks to do away with those pesky other colonizers? Some railroad guns? The Bismarck?
The ships will be still all available - just not all of them at once.
Having a West Indiamen compete with one of the caravels of Columbus, ships that sailed 200 years earlier, would be like

 

[Buffalo Solider]

I think corvette could have +20% against pirates and stay at it's price. Brig of war could be expensive (maybe even equal to frigate, because.. I think it is as valuable as frigate) and then all ships would be viable. Each of them would be useful for different situation.

 

[ConjurerDragon]

Yeah, maybe that's true. As I said before, I'm pretty happy with current balance. On the other hand, I feel like some ships totally outclass other ships.
Theres big lack of pirate ships for sure. Pirate frigate is almost the same as privateer and these are only 2 to choose from. My idea of "pirate sloop" would on one hand add some variety, but on the other hand I think it would be terrible ship, unworthy of buying. If used as clipper/explorer - it would die from first met european power ship, if used as pirate - at one point it would meet some medium-class merchant and that merchant would just wipe it out, as sloop really can only fight low-class merchant ships... Maybe it could be invisible (like submarines in civ IV) to ships other than corvette/regular sloop, to simulate being too fast to catch... Ok, perhaps I'm galoping too far with ideas hahah.

Invisible units that could be seen only by specific other units (Rangers) have already once lead to problems. However a pirate ship does not need to be invisible - just out of sight and the flag of another country slapped on the mast...

 

[Buffalo Solider]

Invisible units that could be seen only by specific other units (Rangers) have already once lead to problems.

oh, I didn't knew of that. But land units seen only by rangers is something different. Ships can't conquer cities/plunder and if that ship was weak anyway, it wouldn't be (maybe) so overpowered.
I just thought invisibility could simulate running away.. In this game you can catch and kill faster ship just because it's your turn now, in real life however, once very fast ship realized he is being chased by warship he could retreat (if he was fast enough... war-ships were usually fast, too), but yeah, it was just random idea, that I got. Maybe not the best one. I think nci convinced me that those smaller ships don't need additional boosts.

just out of sight and the flag of another country slapped on the mast...

I think it would be cool, it could make pirate game very interesting, but it would require a bit of work in .dll file. I suggested invisibility in big part because it is already in game, so no additional code would have to be written.

 

[nci]

The ships will be still all available - just not all of them at once.

Artificial limitations add no value to the game, in my opinion.

Having a West Indiamen compete with one of the caravels of Columbus, ships that sailed 200 years earlier, would be like

But West Indiaman doesn't compete with a single Caravel, now does it? 3x Caravels can deliver the same amount of cargo as upgraded West Indiaman - and they absolutely have more chances to survive a pirate ambush. Although, Caravel being by far the worst ship in the game, it loses comparison to anything.

How about a more fair comparison, eh? Any combination of other starter ships - Flyuts, Caravela Redondas or Carracks - are superior to a single West Indiaman. And, as calculated by @Martin Peralta , Merchantman remains the most efficient ship resource-wise.

In other words, there is no single ship to rule them all.

* Galleon comes close, but it will be nerfed by removing ability to transport units, greatly limiting its utility;

* Caravel is by far the worst ship in the game - but that is to be expected, and it absolutely has its use thanks to affordability and being given for free through ship wreckage event;

* Flyut is acceptable, always a good choice for small/remote colonies;

* Caravela Redonda is OK when upgraded, absolutely has its uses;

* Carrack is the most efficient when upgraded;

* Merchantman is the most efficient without considering upgrades;

* Brigantine is jack of all trades, master of none;

* Sloop is the only naval ship that navigates rivers, and has other uses besides trade;

* West Indiaman is nice, but also too expensive - and again, a combination of smaller ships always does the same job better. It can be used as a combat ship, but will only compete with Corvette, while being slower - and giving it 6th cargo slot to maximize trade efficiency immediately invalidates such option.

I just thought invisibility could simulate running away.

They can literally run away, without any tricks. AI is pretty good at that, by the way - when spotting pirates.

Invisible ships will absolutely ruin the game. A single invisible pirate ship with enough upgrades, including Ship Carpenter II, will simply decimate everything in its path - regardless of how many turns will it take, it'll eventually come out on top, earning its owner precious experience points. Forcing the player to purchase a specific ship for the sole purpose of locating particular enemy ship is simply annoying - there's nothing fun about it.

In WTP, one can easily go further than +100% strength with upgrades - actually, as far as 130% for pirate ships when playing Danish, and 120% for other nations. With determination, it is not very big deal doing this for couple of ships, let alone one - and said upgrade path also boosts visibility range, allowing the ship to detect dangers from afar and avoid them. Imagine giving such a monster invisibility...

Now, commanding privateers, player has to think strategically, and consider line of sight and retreat options - even in case of successful attack, let alone unsuccessful one. Invisibility will just throw this planning down the drain. All invisibility does is create problems - without solving any.