WW2-Global

[tom2050]

The only real way to make the US play a normal game, and to give them the ability to launch massive naval assaults, is to give the US something of a special unit (a U.S. Convoy), that would perhaps be produced by a wonder every year or so. Similar to a convoy, but much stronger, to signify a massive invasion force. I would say give it 20 extra HP, and a high defense. Being protected by 3 escorts would make it tough to take out. With an transport ability of 40+, the AI will definitely fill it up and bring em over. I did a few tests by putting a wonder in US Augusta (got rid of the Zagreb wonder, since Zagrab had 2 wonders). The only thing is, is that the US tends to send it over to Italy, instead of over into Europe. Why? Who knows, probably due to the fact that Italy has weaker units. I tried adding some victory point locations in Germany, but still the same thing.

As it is now, the US tends to be more of a pacificist nation, that doesn't do much at all in regards to the outcome of anything. Besides their navy, which never becomes as powerful as Great Britain or Japans, there is nothing to worry about. My current game as Japan sees the US constantly sending transports over. And similarly, Great Britain is always sending transports over to India. It is as if they ignore making landings in Germany.

Having a special U.S. convoy is the only way to alleviate the US AI nonsense of doing nothing. I am testing the US convoy set to holding 80 units, and the AI will put 80 units in if they are available (although just a test, I don't expect to keep testing it with that many), although if they are not available the AI will keep the US convoy in port until it is a little over 1/4th full, then leave.

I have not played a full regular game with this to test yet, because the AI may send it over to Germany by the time mid-1941 hits, but unknown. In the start of the game, though the US sends it over towards Italy.

If anyone has any ideas on what may make the US AI more receptive to sending transports over to Germany, please post. I will test it out.

I am, in the end, hoping to create something of this sort:
'Placed wonder in Augusta since it is closest to the French coast, in hopes the AI may send the unit directly across the Atlantic, to simulate a D-Day type invasion'
'The Augusta wonder would produce a U.S. Convoy every (52-78 turns)... preferrably 78 turns, this would make the first one available mid-1941. By this time, the US has a plethora of powerful ground units, and the convoy would be filled by the AI.'
'The convoy would need to be very powerful, because 3 escorts do not cut it. To simulate this unit as a coordinated massive invasion force, with its own battleship and carrier escorts, I would recommend the max 20 HP bonus, AA protection, defensive bombardment, as well as a very good defense:
at 40 defense - has a 50% chance win against a normal Battleship, 40% chance against Battleship C2, wouldn't stand a chance against a Hindenburg - defense could be higher - to make sure it is protected, perhaps even up to 60
'If there is only 1 created every 1 year and a half, this would not unbalance the game, but make it more realistic.'
'The amount of units it would need to be tested. But I would say at least 50. The AI is not the smartest, and 50 would probably let it take over 1 city on the German coast'

-Again, any ideas on how this could possibly be refined, or any stats for the US Convoy, as well as how many units, etc would be very helpful!

As is now in my test, the convoy appears to be heading towards Italy. i will update and show results for what it does. Of course this is testing from start of the game, if the US is given the first one in mid 1941, it may do something different with it. If Germany takes all of France, which I think it usually does by the time 1941 hits, cities such as Brest and Bordeaux are closer to Augusta (which would create the US Convoy), therefore there is a chance the US would hit these cities. If it does, that would be terrific. I am going to play a game as Finland (and just make it a quick game) to see what happens there.

 

[tom2050]

Another quick question, relating to the post above...

Is there any way to add a unit into a saved game? It would save much time and effort to add a US Convoy unit to a game I have already played just to see what happens, so I would not need to play a full game.

 

[tom2050]

Amazing! The US will do D-Day invastions!
Picture Size: 120K 777x436

The single US convoy I provided with the large unit carrying ability, went from the US city Augusta down to off the coast of Columbia, then proceded east (slightly behind the rest of the US naval units that proceed across the Atlantic). Then, in an amazing move, while the rest of the US navy went into the Mediterranean Sea, the US Convoy and its 3 Heavy Cruiser escorts changed course (twice) and headed up north. This was very unexpected. At this point Germany had taken Poland, and had taken the French cities of Lille and Verdun, as well as Brussels, Rotterdam, Amsterdam, and Antwerp. The US Convoy, by Week 52, 1939, went in and took Antwerp. This only happened so early, because I gave the US this unit early, along with enough units to fill the US Convoy.

Now having shown the US will do this is quite EXCELLENT NEWS!
If the unit is autoproduced later, it will probably go for either the city of Brest or Bordeaux (since they are closer). Germany will no longer raze the cities of Bordeaux or Toulouse when those cities wonders have Democracy 'unchecked' as a wonder/improvement requirement.

This is as close to a D-Day as is likely to come. But should be a very welcome edition! As this will get the US active in the war! Now having a 'D-Day' by providing this special wonder unit in 1944 would be far too late. Germany players would likely have invaded the US by then. So I would have to recommend the special US Convoy be autoproduced every 52-68 turns.
From the start, 52 turns would be Week 36, 1940 (probably too early). 68 turns would be Week 1, 1941; and it takes about 14-16 turns for US to bring the convoy over to Germany (at a speed of 6), and takes an additional 5-7 turns for US forces to occupy the transport.... bringing about an estimated D-Day type assault between Week 15, 1941 to Week 20, 1941. If this is still too early, it could be pushed back 10-20 more turns for autoproduction.

As far as specific stats go, I would ask for help from the community for suggestions in getting some type of unit going. In my test, the unit had defense 8, 23 HP, speed 7 and made it through to antwerp with no problems, as well as the 3 Heavy Cruisers escorting it (at Week 1, 1940). So it would probably be fine like this against German AI at any time period. Against a human player, it would have to be much tougher unit, being that it represents a massive combined assault (including battleships, cruisers, destroyers, many transports, and AA guns), it should have some formidible stats, to make sure it doesn't just get sunk, but almost to guarnatee that the units do make it to shore (as it did in reality).

Have not seen Rocoteh post in a while, but I am sure he will be glad to hear the AI is capable of something like this! I will now do a full test (as Finland), (to see how AI vs Ai goes) with these stats:

US Convoy produced in Augusta every 68 turns.
Attack: 8, Defense: 40, trans. capacity: 60, HP Bonus: 20, Air Defense: 4, unit abilities: requires escort and ranged attack animation, available to: None (only produced by augusta wonder). It will be a quick test... as Finland, I will do nothing but fortify troops and see what US does with this convoy when it comes around.

I will keep the additional Vic Locations I added in Germany (Bremen, Berlin, Dusseldorf, Cologne, Stuttgart) just to see if it does indeed have an effect on US AI with the transport) but will remove them on later tests to see if they do have an effect or not.

 

[Maimonides]

Again, any ideas on how this could possibly be refined, or any stats for the US Convoy, as well as how many units, etc would be very helpful!

Ever since I found WWII Global, I've wanted to see a "Liberty Ship" unit. I still think the U.S.' Transports should be renamed that. The Liberty ships made a huge contribution to the Allied war effort. Some American shipyards got so efficient they could build one in less than three days. The Liberty ships weren't nearly as powerful as what you're describing, but no transport was. So if you're lookin' for a name for your unit, my vote is for "Liberty Ship."

In my experience, it's Cagliari on Sardinia that the U.S. always heads for, not Italy. If you can figure out why the U.S. AI wants Cagliari so much, you might be able to solve the problem. This has been discussed time & time again throughout this thread, but I think it's still a mystery why the U.S. AI won't invade mainland Europe. It does invade Japan & raze cities (Hiroshima, Nagasaki-A bomb, Tokyo-firebombing)which is good.

Rocoteh, this reminds me-if you need to free up some Wonders, maybe you can take 'em from Japan. It's not historically inaccurate for Japan to have some cites razed...

Another quick question, relating to the post above...

Is there any way to add a unit into a saved game? It would save much time and effort to add a US Convoy unit to a game I have already played just to see what happens, so I would not need to play a full game.

I don't think so.

Ver. 2.5. Brazil. AI most aggressive. Regent.

Week 8, 1942:

-Our scholars learn Air 2 1940. We should learn Land 1941 in 20 Weeks.

-BUG REPORT: This was reported earlier by someone else, but I can corroborate it. Workers & Combat Engineers can't clear Wetlands on Swamp terrain, BUT, if Advanced Actions is turned on, you can put them on a Swamp tile & use the automate clear wetlands button & they will clear Swamp. I am doing it now near Porto Alegre.

-Our Workers complete a road to the Rubber north of Carajas. That makes 13 sources. We are the worlds foremost supplier of quality condoms. Sometimes, we make tires, too.

-The U.S. captures Okinawa!

Week 9, 1942:

Nothing happens...

Week 10, 1942:

-Belem builds a Combat Engineer & starts building a Mass Transit System.

Week 11, 1942:

-We renew the Horses for Aluminum trade with the Soviets.

-Porto Alegre builds a Coastal Fortress & starts building a Combat Engineer.

-Asuncion builds a Barracks & starts building a Combat Engineer.

Week 12, 1942:

-Belem builds a Mass Transit System & starts building a Combat Engineer.

-Manaus builds a Library & starts building a Combat Engineer.

Weeks 13 & 14, 1942:

Nothing happens...

Week 15, 1942:

-Teffe builds a Combat Engineer & starts building a Barracks.

-Sao Paulo builds a Factory & starts building a Hydro Plant.

-Curitiba builds a Combat Engineer & starts building a Mass Transit System.

Week 16, 1942:

-Fortaleza builds a Combat Engineer & starts building a Bank. Gotta keep those condom profits somewhere...

-Curitiba builds a Mass Transit System & starts building a Combat Engineer.

-Japan recaptures Shanghai!

Week 17, 1942:

Nothing happens...

Week 18, 1942:

-Germany offers us peace for 120 Gold. We give their envoy a wedgie & send him home. Even with Spain's ports, I'm still betting they can't get past the British navy to strike at us.

-Montevideo builds a Factory & starts building a Hydro Plant.

Week 19, 1942:

-Recife builds a Factory & starts building a Hydro Plant.

-Great Britain captures Mangnai!

-France captures Shanghai!!! This is their 1st conquest of the war.

To be continued...

 

[Rocoteh]

Maimonides,

Thank you for the reports.

"Rocoteh, should there really be so much desert in Venezuela? I had no idea there was any desert there. I just noticed that much of Venezuela is desert on this map. Perhaps it's for gameplay reasons?"
Maimonides

I will take a look at this with regard to version 2.7.

"Do Coastal Fortesses work in this scenario? I can't remember."
Maimonides


Due to a bug within the Civ 3 game-engine they will not work as described
in the editor.
Will be removed in 2.7.

On adding temples in Brazil:

Will consider it for the next version.

There have not been any playtests-reports om Brazil earlier.
Thus there are probably some improvements left to made.

"Ever since I found WWII Global, I've wanted to see a "Liberty Ship" unit. I still think the U.S.' Transports should be renamed that. The Liberty ships made a huge contribution to the Allied war effort. Some American shipyards got so efficient they could build one in less than three days. The Liberty ships weren't nearly as powerful as what you're describing, but no transport was. So if you're lookin' for a name for your unit, my vote is for "Liberty Ship.""
Maimonides

OK I will have it in mind.

"-BUG REPORT: This was reported earlier by someone else, but I can corroborate it. Workers & Combat Engineers can't clear Wetlands on Swamp terrain, BUT, if Advanced Actions is turned on, you can put them on a Swamp tile & use the automate clear wetlands button & they will clear Swamp. I am doing it now near Porto Alegre."
Maimonides

Notes have been taken.

Looking forward to hear how this interesting playtest turns out.

Thank you and welcome back.


Rocoteh

 

[aceault]

Amazing! The US will do D-Day invastions!
Picture Size: 120K 777x436

tom2050,

first of all, great job with your testing. I think the US has been too passive and in my game (Germany-Sid level-v.2.5) they never were a problem.
Now the D-Day idea is great.

Against German and Italian AI a unit with 20 HP and defense 40 is probably okay, as there should be a very weak naval and offensive bombing presence by the Axis. THe AI (as seen in many games) builds offensive land and defensive air units mostly, the ocean will be ruled by Great Britain most of the times.

However, against a human player (like me e.g.) a transport carrying 60 strong ground units will be the target the whole game will focus on until it is down on the ground of the ocean. THe problem is that the unit will only be escorted by top 3 other escort ships and I think this cannot be changed, so the unit has to be created that way that it is not easy prey for a human player.

I am just reporting my game experience. At the start of 1941, my naval force was weak due to the presence of the British and my decision to expand my territorry by land war. I just had some subs spying around. I had some bombers though and this is what the US would have to worry about, heavy bombing while they are moving towards the coast and then submarine attacks against a redlined escort and the transport itself. AA defense 4 should not help too much. I suggest to increase the movement of the special carrier/transport unit to 12 up to 15 (make sure there are escort ships with the same movement, special defense ships like attack 6/ defense 100 movement 12 to 15) so that once they are in range of air attacks, there is not much time to take them out. Another option would be a stealth mode, the ship cannot be seen and attacked until reaching the shore.

Both would simulate well that it was unforeseen where the landing would take place.

However, great that the test worked and I think this will add a lot of fun!!!!

tom2050, great job!!!!!

Thanks!

 

[Rocoteh]

week 34 of 1943 - Germany- Sid level - v. 2.5.

Domination victory!

After having taken Australia, New Zealand, Brazil, Argentina, Colombia and Venezuela, the world is 66 per cent mine (population 78 percent).

I just researched Sea 2 1945, the atomic bomb, I completed the Manhattan Project and was about to build the first bomb.

My military is strong compared to all other nations.

I have got about 550 modern tanks (Panther, Jagdpanther, SS 1943 and 1944), 80 heavy bombers and 40 Hindenburgs. I guess US invasion will have to wait till another game....
There is no challenge anymore and victory is officially achieved anyway.

I had a lot of fun, thanks to the creators,

see you guys

aceault,

An impressing victory and a playtest that have been very interesting
to follow.

Thank you for your reports and welcome back.

Rocoteh

 

[aceault]

Ver. 2.5. Brazil. AI most aggressive. Regent.


-Manaus builds a Library & starts building a Combat Engineer.

First of all, Maimonides, great reporting, I really enjoy reading them. They got some nice entertainment value.

Now, I have always wondered why you keep producing combat engineers as you seem to use them mostly for terraforming (and not for railroads). Normal workers work the ground with the same speed and are much cheaper. Furthermore you are not involved in any conflict that you would need their hit points and defense value.

I am waiting for your attack upon Argentina. I think you have to take all South-America ( and this soon) to have a chance to become a serious opponent to the other heavyweights of the game.

take care and we are all waiting for more news from the country where women and beaches are too beautiful to really worry about going to war...

 

[Rocoteh]

Hello Rocoteh -

I still check your site regularly and see you have posted 2.6 (no RR). I will give it a try and report back. I think this will be interesting.

Bob1475,

Welcome back!

Looking forward to hear what think about version 2.6.


Rocoteh

 

[Rocoteh]

somdnole,

Thank you for the report.

I think you have achieved good results as France.
To still control continental France by 1945 is for sure very good.

Your playtest also confirm that Germany-AI is a major problem.
I will consider a special Germany-AI version.

Thank you and welcome back.


Rocoteh

 

[againsttheflow]

The single US convoy I provided with the large unit carrying ability, went from the US city Augusta down to off the coast of Coluombia

FYP

Believe me, I'm not paranoid about this but everybody gets it wrong!

 

[tom2050]

FYP

Believe me, I'm not paranoid about this but everybody gets it wrong!

It's alright! Ha! I was actually referring to the US city of Columbia. Although who knows, I have probably mis-spelled it in some previous posts.

 

[Rocoteh]

tom2050,

Thank you for the reports.

On unit-stats:

OK will look over the units you mention with regard to version 2.7.

"Have not seen Rocoteh post in a while, but I am sure he will be glad to hear the AI is capable of something like this! I will now do a full test (as Finland), (to see how AI vs Ai goes) with these stats:"
tom2050

Yes its very good news!

I have now and then considered a "super-convoy" unit for US to solve the problem
with AI and trans-ocean wars.
Its possible such a unit will be introduced in version 2.7.

On the Japan playtest:

An invasion of the US West Coast will probably not work.
US is to strong now.

AI naval production still very low.


Thank you and welcome back.


Rocoteh

 

[Rocoteh]

I have been reading the posts, and would like to propose the addition of the Lend-Lease Small Wonder, or more properly Wonders to the game. The Lend-Lease Act of March of 1941 allowed the US government to lend military equipment and material to those countries fighting Germany, Italy, and later Japan, without requiring payment. This was an enormous help to the Allies. I use the Lend-Lease concept in my summer history gaming classes where we play Axis and Allies, both the whole world and the Pacific war versions. I am aware that various wonders have been plugged into the game to autoproduce units. Basically, you could have a Transport Small Wonder that produces Transports, a Bomber Small Wonder that produces bombers, a Fighter Small Wonder that produces Fighters, a Tank Small Wonder that produces Tanks, an Artillery Small Wonder that produces Artilley, an Infantry Small Wonder that produces infantry units, and a Naval Small Wonder that produces destroyer escorts. A nation would have to build these, and they could not be built by Germany, Italy, or Japan.

If something like this already exists, I ask for excuse of my ignorance, as I am on Macs, and the scenario does not run on my Macs. Nor do I have a Conquests game editor for my Macs. If someone has managed to get it to run on a Mac, I would love to hear how he did it. I now have a Windows box for game editing, so I am going to try and work on it so it will run on a Mac. I have played some on the Winter War scenario, as I have studied the Russo-Finnish War extensively, and worked on that to simulate the large amount of military assistance received by the Finns from other countries, including Mussolini's Italy.

timerover51,

Its an interesting idea.

The main problem is playbalance.
Soviet is already very strong in the scenario.

Lend-Lease will make it stronger.
Anyway I will have your idea in mind with regard to future versions.

Rocoteh

 

[tom2050]

Ever since I found WWII Global, I've wanted to see a "Liberty Ship" unit. I still think the U.S.' Transports should be renamed that. The Liberty ships made a huge contribution to the Allied war effort. Some American shipyards got so efficient they could build one in less than three days. The Liberty ships weren't nearly as powerful as what you're describing, but no transport was. So if you're lookin' for a name for your unit, my vote is for "Liberty Ship."

Well, the US Convoy would signify a whole group of ships, comparable to all the ships that actually participated in the D-Day operation. The reason why it would not be produced very often at all. And also to give it a very high strength to avoid it being sunk by human players.

It is amazing how fast the Liberty Ships were produced though! I do agree. You know, since Liberty ships were made from 1941 to 1945, if they became available on the technology tree for Sea 1941, carrying a similar amount of troops as a regular transport, but at a much lower cost in shields, this might actually help the US AI as well in launching more naval assaults! The US AI needs things like this in order to secure a more active role in the conflict.

In my experience, it's Cagliari on Sardinia that the U.S. always heads for, not Italy. If you can figure out why the U.S. AI wants Cagliari so much, you might be able to solve the problem. This has been discussed time & time again throughout this thread, but I think it's still a mystery why the U.S. AI won't invade mainland Europe. It does invade Japan & raze cities (Hiroshima, Nagasaki-A bomb, Tokyo-firebombing)which is good.

Yes, you are quite right. The US Convoy was initially heading in that direction, that was why I was so shocked when it diverted course and went and took Antwerp. But I am doing an actual playtest now, so we shall see if this holds up or not. I don't know how much victory point locations effect the AI, but the few I placed in Germany (for playtest purposes only) could have had something to do with it.

And by the way, your playtest has me cracking up laughing at times! I must say it is quite enjoyable to read.

 

[tom2050]

tom2050,
Against German and Italian AI a unit with 20 HP and defense 40 is probably okay, as there should be a very weak naval and offensive bombing presence by the Axis. THe AI (as seen in many games) builds offensive land and defensive air units mostly, the ocean will be ruled by Great Britain most of the times.

Yes, my first playtest had a convoy with 20 HP and 8 defense, and it made it to Antwerp in Week 1, 1940 with no problems, so AI ships sinking it would not be much of a problem. Italy's navy usually gets wiped out completely, and Germany usually manages to hang on to a few Bismark's, but nothing to fear.

However, against a human player (like me e.g.) a transport carrying 60 strong ground units will be the target the whole game will focus on until it is down on the ground of the ocean. THe problem is that the unit will only be escorted by top 3 other escort ships and I think this cannot be changed, so the unit has to be created that way that it is not easy prey for a human player.

Exactly! The human opponent is what I am really concerned with, because a human player would not only be on the lookout for this unit, but throw everything they possibly can at it, to sink it. haha!

I am just reporting my game experience. At the start of 1941, my naval force was weak due to the presence of the British and my decision to expand my territorry by land war. I just had some subs spying around. I had some bombers though and this is what the US would have to worry about, heavy bombing while they are moving towards the coast and then submarine attacks against a redlined escort and the transport itself. AA defense 4 should not help too much. I suggest to increase the movement of the special carrier/transport unit to 12 up to 15 (make sure there are escort ships with the same movement, special defense ships like attack 6/ defense 100 movement 12 to 15) so that once they are in range of air attacks, there is not much time to take them out. Another option would be a stealth mode, the ship cannot be seen and attacked until reaching the shore.

If the single convoy is to represent a massive 'D-Day' type invasion force, it's stats could be very very high. The actual D-Day invasion fleet was huge, something like 7000 ships. In which 1200 were warships. With this in mind, it may be a good idea to give it a very high defense, high AA, defensive bombard, and max 20 HP, so that a human player would need many Bismarck Battleships just to take it out. I wonder if there is a way to have a ship with low attack/high defense always protect the convoy, though, the AI may send it off somewhere else The US is stuck with Battleship C2's until Sea 1943 when it gets the Iowa, so it would most likely escort with 1 of these.

Thanks for the input, I will test some of those options out, but the true test would probably need to be with a human Germany player.

 

[tom2050]

tom2050,
Yes its very good news!

I have now and then considered a "super-convoy" unit for US to solve the problem
with AI and trans-ocean wars.
Its possible such a unit will be introduced in version 2.7.

I initially didn't expect the AI to send it over to Germany, and was quite shocked when it did. It is one of those things, though, that would have to not be too powerful, yet strong enough in order to make sinking it very very difficult. Even being auto-produced every 68 turns, which is what I am testing now, I think this is too often. During the whole course of the game, there shouldn't be more than, perhaps 3 of them. Otherwise, it could severely unbalance the game, if the US has uber-transports all over the world. So it could be made obsolete at a certain time also, say when the US researches a very high tech (since on SID they research very fast).

 

[Andreas68]

Your Convoy unit is a very interesting idea, tom

Some other things I noticed;

.) Paratroopers have no pillage - I think this has already been reported

.) Light Cruiser C2 (Sea 1942) lacks any bombardment - a couple older light cruisers have it.

.) The British Mosquito has no recce ability - making the Blenheim the only British recce plane throughout the entire war - the Mosquito was, to my knowledge, used for armed recce sorties.

.) Heavy Artillery can be airlifted - other, smaller artillery can't - Bug?

.) Light Tank can also be airlifted - to my knowledge the only tank developed in WW II to be airlifted was the US M22, named Locust in British service. The M22 was found to be too heavy (8 tons), could only be carried by a C-54 Skymaster with turret in the fuselage and the hull suspended below the wing. Saw only service in the British army.

.) On the other hand, a couple infantry units can't be airlifted, like Canadian and Free Polish infantry - they're named divisions, so maybe it's on purpose

.) Ju-488 has no recources set to be needed to build it


One other thing, I removed the land tile NE of Tunis, making the passage between Tunisia and Sicily 2 tiles wide - no longer possible for a single destroyer (of the vicious French Navy ) to block the Mediterranean, works wonders

Currently I am in the middle of a playtest playing as British, at week 31 1942 now. Will report when it's finished.

 

[Andreas68]

Two more things - tom I suggest calling your US Convoy "Invasion Fleet", because that's what it basically is.

And about the German AI - how about adding Norway/Denmark, Yugoslavia and Greece to the Allied alliance?

This would maybe make Russia think twice about going after Norway (and Sweden) and make Germany going north, and would maybe make Italy launch a Balkan campaign (with the Germans helping out and conquering the lot) - in other words, trigger a larger European conquest by the Axis alliance.

 

[Uncle_Ted]

One other thing, I removed the land tile NE of Tunis, making the passage between Tunisia and Sicily 2 tiles wide - no longer possible for a single destroyer (of the vicious French Navy ) to block the Mediterranean, works wonders

I haven't looked at the latest version of the map, but I typically make this change on my own whenever I play. I played once as the UK and was blocked from transiting the Med by a French cruiser -- a very frustrating and unsatisfactory predicament.