Year of the Sloth

A computer take-over will lead to:

  • A utopia of plenty

    Votes: 3 21.4%
  • A distopia of poverty

    Votes: 11 78.6%

  • Total voters
    14
Reading this it dawns on me how unreasonable we gamers are with our constant whining for "better" AI opponents.

This is true to a degree, but only to a degree. It's very difficult to build a "ground-up" AI that will "figure out" strong play by itself. It's not *that* difficult to code an AI to do the kinds of behaviors that human players will use to win the game, but it takes playtesting and time investment that is not always available given deadlines etc. In a game like civ you will also face backlash from players if you do this as some people do not like when the AI is "playing a game", they prefer more of a historical roleplay.

whereas the developers of a Civ game only have a few years before the game becomes obsolete... meanwhile all during the time where the game is still viable, new expansions, DLC, bug-fixes, nerfs, buffs, etc., keep changing the game.

It must be maddening for the developers to hear players constantly complaining "Why can't they just design a proper AI?!"

This all certainly impacts the ability to make good AI.
 
Yes, ha, we simultaneously complain about how we can't get a decent Civ AI and worry that computers are going to take over everything!

My own hunch is that sentience is going to prove a lot more connected to "wetware," embodiedness, than we presently imagine.
 
Spoiler :
 
Even if political and business leaders turned benevolent all of a sudden and tried their hardest to bring forth a post-scarcity economy, there's a pretty fundamental problem in the way. Most people actually do need to work to feel valuable and needed, and would hate pursuing leisure and learning without having about 20-25 hours/week of work. This is actually mentioned in Brave New World, as the Controller is describing the history of their social system. It was discovered that people became less satisfied when work hours were reduced below about 4/workday; the state had to respond by creating unnecessary work to keep people happy.

I suspect the same is true in the real world, although most UBI trials so far have gotten abandoned midway through for no good reason, so it's hard to come up with any good conclusions. There may still be some information from recipients of welfare and disability benefits, versus people in similar situations who did not obtain them, although I haven't really plunged into the literature enough to draw any conclusions.

It is possible that our society's cultural preoccupation with work is responsible for a lot of the problem, but I can't imagine it's all of it - humans in every society have been under social obligations to spend a decent share of their time contributing to the group's welfare, although the nature of the obligations and time off from them have varied greatly between hunter-gatherer, pastoralist, agricultural, and industrial societies. I strongly suspect that most people do not respond well to having no obligations to provide for themselves and loved ones, and that it triggers a kind of existential despair that can only be partly covered up by electronic entertainment, drugs, gambling, sex, etc.

A UBI/post-scarcity society doesn't preclude labour, it just changes its form.

With less focus on creating profit, you can focus more on creating community. Even if you are anti-social, you can find valuable labour in behind-the-scenes work in your local community.

A society that cares for one another is also a society that can boast gainful labour for all who are willing and capable. Without resources and economics to worry about on an individual level, you're then capable of providing labour and pursuing labour in more humanistic ways. Running a communal kitchen, for example, is work, even if it doesn't provide monetary profit. But such an endeavour would become profitable from a social perspective in this hypothetical society.
 
A UBI/post-scarcity society doesn't preclude labour, it just changes its form.

With less focus on creating profit, you can focus more on creating community. Even if you are anti-social, you can find valuable labour in behind-the-scenes work in your local community.

A society that cares for one another is also a society that can boast gainful labour for all who are willing and capable. Without resources and economics to worry about on an individual level, you're then capable of providing labour and pursuing labour in more humanistic ways. Running a communal kitchen, for example, is work, even if it doesn't provide monetary profit. But such an endeavour would become profitable from a social perspective in this hypothetical society.
Join Starfleet if you want. I'm Maquis all the way.
 
Join Starfleet if you want. I'm Maquis all the way.

The Maquis and Starfleet aren't very different from one another.

But even if you were to argue they were, the beauty of Starfleet is that you're allowed to possess Maquis beliefs, i.e. the right to settle and work the land without replicators. In the hypothetical society I'm talking about, I would not be surprised if many communities adopt manual labour as a means of feeling enriched and closer to one another. Community gardens, for example, would be a great labour undertaken by many, even if food and the like can be handled entirely by machines or far-off farms.
 
Sort of like communes? I mean, it can work, we have examples. Usually takes a pretty strong religious community with everyone mostly on the same overt page to make it hold together at all. Lots of hard work for not a lot of money is a difficult voluntary sell unless the alternatives are deprivation and starvation.
 
Sort of like communes? I mean, it can work, we have examples. Usually takes a pretty strong religious community with everyone mostly on the same overt page to make it hold together at all. Lots of hard work for not a lot of money is a difficult voluntary sell unless the alternatives are deprivation and starvation.

Pretty much. I think communes become more enticing to the layman if there aren't the overwhelming obligations re: monetary gain and resources.
 
Hasn't the pressure to work or starve been decreasing, overall, for the past 50 or so? Have communes and local community involvement been in a golden age?
 
Hasn't the pressure to work or starve been decreasing, overall, for the past 50 or so? Have communes and local community involvement been in a golden age?

I wouldn't say that it has. We live in a society that outright shames you for not working a 9-5. It's considered "good culture" to be a slave to a ledger. Couple that with a general decrease in the need for self-sufficiency and you don't have an environment that's conducive to a commune-style approach. Most people, even in rural towns, don't know how to grow anything or create anything. Even with my romanticizing and my growing up in a rural town I only know the absolute basics of agriculture and landscaping.

I mean, if we're speaking objectively, yes, there's less pressure of "work or die", but subjectively I'm not sure anyone's really grasped that except in the most angsty young adult sense.
 
I'll give you that you found a creative way to tell the world you don't know anything about computers.
I wouldn't say that it has. We live in a society that outright shames you for not working a 9-5. It's considered "good culture" to be a slave to a ledger. Couple that with a general decrease in the need for self-sufficiency and you don't have an environment that's conducive to a commune-style approach. Most people, even in rural towns, don't know how to grow anything or create anything. Even with my romanticizing and my growing up in a rural town I only know the absolute basics of agriculture and landscaping.

I mean, if we're speaking objectively, yes, there's less pressure of "work or die", but subjectively I'm not sure anyone's really grasped that except in the most angsty young adult sense.

You need to meet my kids.
 
I mean, if we're speaking objectively, yes, there's less pressure of "work or die", but subjectively I'm not sure anyone's really grasped that except in the most angsty young adult sense.

Well, I'm just musing if literal "work or die" is actually what it kinda takes to make certain things that are indeed meaningful and good, meaningful and good.

Dunno about the latter part. Lots and lots of people that hate their jobs in midlife, I don't think they're generally under the impression that they've discovered something their parent's generation didn't know.
 
The Maquis and Starfleet aren't very different from one another.

But even if you were to argue they were, the beauty of Starfleet is that you're allowed to possess Maquis beliefs, i.e. the right to settle and work the land without replicators. In the hypothetical society I'm talking about, I would not be surprised if many communities adopt manual labour as a means of feeling enriched and closer to one another. Community gardens, for example, would be a great labour undertaken by many, even if food and the like can be handled entirely by machines or far-off farms.
"I know you. I was like you once, but then I opened my eyes. Open your eyes, Captain. Why is the Federation so obsessed with the Maquis? We've never harmed you. And yet we're constantly arrested and charged with terrorism. Starships chase us through the Badlands and our supporters are harassed and ridiculed. Why? Because we've left the Federation, and that's the one thing you can't accept. Nobody leaves paradise. Everyone should want to be in the Federation. Hell, you even want the Cardassians to join. You're only sending them replicators because one day they can take their 'rightful place' on the Federation Council. You know, in some ways you're even worse than the Borg. At least they tell you about their plans for assimilation. You're more insidious. You assimilate people and they don't even know it."
Utopias are often as unforgiving as dystopias. I intend to declare the Maquis an independent republic.

I enjoy gardening. I suspect manual labour for fun would definitely exist. The number of retirees who take up hobbies involving manual labour is a good indicator. Many garden, my grandmother took up carpentry, my grandfather fishes. But I lack your optimism.
 
I mean, how exactly do you think the wealthy elite are going to be able to control a fully sapient AI that can make literally thousands, possibly millions, of decisions in the time it takes a human to make a single decision?

By controlling its "ethics". At some point, somebody has to tell the AI what is "good", what to aim for and what should be avoided at all cost. For example, increasing the well-being of humans is a goal that most would agree that an AI should have. But suppose the AI is able to quantify the impact of certain measures on the well-being of humans, how should it value its distribution. How much equality is there supposed to be? Is it okay to have a few suffer greatly if the well-being of the rest is slightly improved? Are some allowed to have much more than the others, provided the overall well-being rises? If you are part of the wealthy elite, you want the AI not to value equality too much, or otherwise it might send its tax collector robots to loot your house in order to feed the poor. You won't be able to control every single decision, but having control over the value system of the AI would be very valuable.

Machines don't do anything that a human didn't tell them to do. Literally, nothing.
Technically correct, but in practice the control can be extremely implicit. For example, once you are out of the opening book, no one has ever told a chess program to make a particular move. Humans have provided the algorithm that ended up in that decision, but actually never executed the algorithm themselves (not that they could in their lifetime). So the machine may do something that no human ever intended, for better or worse.

Even if my code works exactly as it is supposed to, there are cases in which it will do something unintended by me, because the algorithm I designed doesn't work for this particular case. I do admit telling it implicitly to do that, but I never told it explicitly and never would, because it doesn't make sense.

This is the problem with AI in its current state: You tell the AI what to do without knowing what this will entail. And the more complicated the algorithms get and the more computational power is thrown at it, the less will its designer know what an AI will do.
 
Utopias are often as unforgiving as dystopias. I intend to declare the Maquis an independent republic.

Eddington had an interesting view, but ultimately the Federation only treated the Maquis that way because they were outright ruining galactic relations between two superpowers. There are plenty of small colonies dotted throughout Federation space that live as the Maquis do without any harassment or attention. You have the right to settle land, but that right gets a little tricky when it's in contested territory and impacts billions of other people.

(Obviously) the solution would be for that region of space to just be ceded by both superpowers and let them colonists self-govern but alas, geopolitics.
 
Technically correct, but in practice the control can be extremely implicit.

Well, yeah. And what you're talking about is exactly what I'm saying - if a machine did something that a human like you didn't intend, it was your error, not the machine being 'disobedient'. Though of course as you say no one could possibly think of every possibility in advance, so this kind of error is unavoidable. But it is human/programmer error, not a prelude to a Skynet uprising.
 
Eddington had an interesting view, but ultimately the Federation only treated the Maquis that way because they were outright ruining galactic relations between two superpowers. There are plenty of small colonies dotted throughout Federation space that live as the Maquis do without any harassment or attention. You have the right to settle land, but that right gets a little tricky when it's in contested territory and impacts billions of other people.

(Obviously) the solution would be for that region of space to just be ceded by both superpowers and let them colonists self-govern but alas, geopolitics.
Eddington was my favourite character. No one else agrees with me.

Those colonies are only tolerated because they tow the Federation line. If you get uppity, you get punished or abandoned, like the Maquis or Turkana IV.
 
Computers aren't going to gain consciousness and replace us. It's just not possible. They don't "think," they run data through decision trees to come up with the most statistically appropriate responses. Computers do stuff very fast, but they don't know why they do things. They will never have abstract thought in the same sense that humans do, or have a sense of purpose like humans do. If they eventually "think" for themselves it will be a different sort of consciousness than ours. And that's ok, why we would ever want something that fast with human like emotions/psyche is beyond me.

All the doom and gloom about robots replacing workers and more inequality happening I think is misplaced. Really whats happened in the last couple decades is global competition replacing workers in 1st world countries. So not tech but cheaper exported labor. Most technology reduces overall costs thus raising standards of living, making workers more productive and valuable. A lot of the wealth inequality now is due to social issues/programs not because of technology.
 
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