YosefNES I: Oif Gelt, Oif Gelt, un Oif Gelt

[Stormbringer]

To Changati Khanate
From the Commonwealth of Lithuania-Novgorod

We have heard that your great empire has access to the riches of the Orient. The Commonwealth's merchants and citizens do sorely desire for these exotic goods to filter into their markets from the port of Asthrankh we would be willing to allow your traders access into this port if you allow ours into your markets.

Chagatai cities are open to all the travelers and merchants that seek our land. And we appreciate the gratitude of Lithuanians and Russians in allowing Chagatai travelers to their lands.

 

[Israelite9191]

Also with regard to church lands, how extensive are they, hypotethically speaking if they were seaized what sort of economic benefit, would they yield?

That would be a very, very, very poor idea. Very.

Hm....that poor? Perhaps I underestimate the importance of the church, but haven't several nations already done this at this point in the TL?

Historically the church owned a third of all English lands before the King seized them, he made a load of money selling them.

Well yeah, but Novgorod-Lithuania is a mostly Orthodox, highly religious nation. You're practically asking for a revolution if you just axe the Church in such a way.

Thlayli is very correct. Perhaps I haven't estimated the power of the Church enough, but it is a very powerful presence in the Commonwealth. Though the state does have a lot of influence on the Church in directing it's policy and leadership, a direct confrontation with the Church would be very, very painful for the Commonwealth.

EDIT: Still need orders from -
England
Ottomans

 

[Communisto]

I hope they get their orders in. Pretty psyched for the update.

 

[Israelite9191]

I hope they get their orders in. Pretty psyched for the update.

Oh, I'm proceeding with the update, it just means I'm going to have to save Europe towards the end of the update and pray that I get orders in time to use them.

 

[Condor_green]

I have a feeling this one isnt going to end well for me. I bet 12 awesome points that the Khmer are the ones who betray me.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Ah...it is only turn one.

 

[JBOM]

I have a feeling this one isnt going to end well for me. I bet 12 awesome points that the Khmer are the ones who betray me.

I would stop betting all your awesome points because when you run out Chuck Norris is gonna roundhouse kick you to the moon.

 

[Thlayli]

My orders are trivial and nonessential, but I am working on them. They will be in before I go to sleep.

 

[Israelite9191]

My orders are trivial and nonessential, but I am working on them. They will be in before I go to sleep.

Oy, I forgot about you (too small on the bloody map, damnation to whoever drew that). Will appreciate your orders when they come in.

 

[Thlayli]

They are in. Time to sleep. =)

 

[Israelite9191]

I have finished the intro and East Asia. I intend to finish the Americas and Sub-Saharan Africa tomorrow, and, if I do not go to North Carolina (which seems likely, given the horrible weather and thus flight delays here), I will try and get one more region down, probably India and Southeast Asia.

Still need orders from-
England
Ottomans

I can probably go ahead fairly easily without England (though certainly to their detriment), but I really need the Ottomans before I can do anything in the Near East.

 

[das]

2. The Commonwealth isn't a federation of many parts, only of two, Lithuania and "Novgorod," which in TTL is most of the Russian and Ingrian provinces. Much like OTL Muscovy, Russia of TTL was united by force, not diplomacy, the important difference being that Lithuania's immense military force and the genious of Vytautas were set towards the conquest of Russia, not Central European affairs. (I should add the border between Novgorod and Lithuania, don't know why I didn't).

lurker's comment: OOC: What I meant by a federation is that they still kept the essential system of principalities on the lower levels, which even hyper-centralised Muscovy was unable to entirely destroy until (arguably) the late 15th century, right? I mean, with the system with the assorted princes, frequently relatives, ruling the provinces as semi-feudals, semi-royal officials, with varying degrees of local freedom and central control. The only real alternative to that is an actual system of civil service, but even if that is in the works, basically it would not make sense for more extensive and historically more decentralised Lithuania to progress faster or as fast as the more compact and centralised Muscovy in this regard.

If that's not the case, then what's with the internal borders?

Anyway, yes, this does make more sense. So is Novgorod basically the new seat of the Great Prince of the Entire Rus, who also happens to be the Grand Duke of Lithuania? I would still think it would retain various privileges, though, quite probably including the elective local bishop as the bishop has traditionally been in charge of foreign affairs with the western countries, and so would've been the one for "Vitovt Keistutovich" to talk to in the first place; ticking off the free northwestern boyars has historically been far more dangerous and potentially fatal than ticking off the Church, though it makes sense that the Church would generally be more of a force if Russia is untied from the west and not the centralising north-east.

 

[alex994]

I have finished the intro and East Asia. I intend to finish the Americas and Sub-Saharan Africa tomorrow, and, if I do not go to North Carolina (which seems likely, given the horrible weather and thus flight delays here), I will try and get one more region down, probably India and Southeast Asia.

Still need orders from-
England
Ottomans

I can probably go ahead fairly easily without England (though certainly to their detriment), but I really need the Ottomans before I can do anything in the Near East.

OOC: No hopes for a Christmas present then...

 

[Israelite9191]

lurker's comment: OOC: What I meant by a federation is that they still kept the essential system of principalities on the lower levels, which even hyper-centralised Muscovy was unable to entirely destroy until (arguably) the late 15th century, right? I mean, with the system with the assorted princes, frequently relatives, ruling the provinces as semi-feudals, semi-royal officials, with varying degrees of local freedom and central control. The only real alternative to that is an actual system of civil service, but even if that is in the works, basically it would not make sense for more extensive and historically more decentralised Lithuania to progress faster or as fast as the more compact and centralised Muscovy in this regard.

lurker's comment:
The Empire is quite decentralised, yes.

If that's not the case, then what's with the internal borders?

I use internal borders for almost all countries for three reasons: 1.) For some, they are important, such as the constituents of the Kalmar Union and Haudenosaunee, these borders are shown with a solid black line 2.) They help with updates by displaying borders between ethnic, religious, geographic, or administrative divisions that allow me to keep track of such things, and 3.) Aesthetic value. So, in other words, the regional subdivisions do not necessarily have huge importance. Taking Lithuania-Novgorod as an example, there is supposed to be (my mistake here) a solid black line between the Lithuania and Novgorod components of the commonwealth, while the smaller lines show administrative subdivisions, which Lithuania's quite accurate and Novgorod's somewhat simplified. (Yes, I know this is a very long answer to a quip.)

Anyway, yes, this does make more sense. So is Novgorod basically the new seat of the Great Prince of the Entire Rus, who also happens to be the Grand Duke of Lithuania? I would still think it would retain various privileges, though, quite probably including the elective local bishop as the bishop has traditionally been in charge of foreign affairs with the western countries, and so would've been the one for "Vitovt Keistutovich" to talk to in the first place; ticking off the free northwestern boyars has historically been far more dangerous and potentially fatal than ticking off the Church, though it makes sense that the Church would generally be more of a force if Russia is untied from the west and not the centralising north-east.

Yes, essentially. Novgorod is the seat of the united monarchy, which generallly goes by the unified title King of Lithuania-Novgorod. The Bishopric still exists as an elected position (never said that it didn't, just that it wasn't important), but it no longer has such political power. As part of the consolidation of power in the single monarchy, all important functions, such as foreign policy, went to the monarch and away from the bishop.

OOC: No hopes for a Christmas present then...

Well, a.) I'm not going to North Carolina after all and b.) I checked on flyingchicken, who appears not to have been active since the 17th when he reserved the Ottomans, so I am proceeding without his orders and considering his reservation forfeit (given the importance of the Ottomans and youth of this NES) if they do not come in by the time I finish the update (I will still save the Near East till last), thus c.) I should finish in a couple days. Oh, and d.) when is Christmas? I know it's sometime later this week, but I honestly don't know when....

 

[Terrance888]

Thursday. Just when you will be done 'In a couple of days' ! Christmas present! Woot!

 

[Communisto]

aw man I was pulling for an update today. Oh well, a nice christmas morning update wouldn't be too terrible.

 

[das]

lurker's comment: Just seems a bit strange that the Novgorodian boyars would give up so much power and privilege; then again, it would make sense for them to do so for the same reason as the with various Lithuanian feudals defecting to Muscovy in OTL: they would trade their local privileges and freedom for the key positions in the emerging central administration, such as it is, including court (=government) positions and/or land grants in the newly-conquered, confiscated and otherwise available territories. I'm guessing that that's what happened, then?

 

[Israelite9191]

lurker's comment: Just seems a bit strange that the Novgorodian boyars would give up so much power and privilege; then again, it would make sense for them to do so for the same reason as the with various Lithuanian feudals defecting to Muscovy in OTL: they would trade their local privileges and freedom for the key positions in the emerging central administration, such as it is, including court (=government) positions and/or land grants in the newly-conquered, confiscated and otherwise available territories. I'm guessing that that's what happened, then?

Sure......

No, you're correct, that is what happened.

 

[a_propagandist]

I'm sorry, I don't think I can put as much effort into this as it deserves. For the present moment, I will have to drop this NES. However, I will probably be able to join once more. Sorry about this.

 

[Condor_green]

I found a little typo. You still have Luckymoose under the Khmer empire.