"You probably think I'm a monster"

[Sharwood]

I would plead that that's an isolated case; probably isolated around Lakemba.

Lakemba is certainly the worst place for it, but you hear it all ove the Western Suburbs. Anywhere with a large congregation of Muslims there will be groups who believe this sort of thing, largely because they gather together and form little ghettoes for themselves, where they can do no wrong and the White man is always keeping them down.

I see it all the time, and the really sad part is that they are marginalising themselves, not being marginalised. Anywhere where Muslims regularly mix with other cultures, such as where I am in Penrith, they're always treated just like anyone else. Places like Lakemba they intentionally set themselves apart, and that's a large part of the reason they're distrusted in and around such places.

 

[Camikaze]

Sure there will always be radical factions within a large concentration of a particular group. Like in Cronulla. But that isn't really a reason to prohibit (or limit) immigration of that particular group.

And when you say that they are marginalising themselves, it is probably more to do with them being marginalised by everyone else, on the whole.

 

[Sharwood]

Sure there will always be radical factions within a large concentration of a particular group. Like in Cronulla. But that isn't really a reason to prohibit (or limit) immigration of that particular group.

And when you say that they are marginalising themselves, it is probably more to do with them being marginalised by everyone else, on the whole.

The Cronulla riots were primarily started by White supremacists from Newcastle. I know several of them.

As for the marginalisation issue, I see this al the time. I go to a university where people of all ethnicities mix freely with no troubles, and Penrith itself isn't exactly ethnically homogeneous. The only people that don't mix are those that choose not to mix, and when they do that people begin to distrust them.

Hell, my douchebag room-mate is perfect evidence of this: he refused to talk to people in his workplace, other than his supervisors, except when he absolutely had to, and was surprised when he got fired. If you intentionally marginalise yourself, you will be treated in like manner by others.

And it's got nothing to do with limiting immigration from particular groups. I just think we should have a more intelligent method of deciding who can immigrate. Do you have any skills we need? No? Then piss off. More than enough manual labourers, thank you very much. If you're a doctor, and a competent one, welcome, enjoy your stay. Just don't speak your own language with the AFP around.

 

[Camikaze]

Well, yes, self-marginalisation (?) is an issue, but not the dominant one. It is exceptionally hard for Muslims to enter into many other communities, so they cannot enter into other communities, to a large degree, without facing great prejudice. Take the following, for example:

Link to video.
My favourite bit is the old guy right at the end.

 

[Sharwood]

Well, yes, self-marginalisation (?) is an issue, but not the dominant one. It is exceptionally hard for Muslims to enter into many other communities, so they cannot enter into other communities, to a large degree, without facing great prejudice. Take the following, for example:

Link to video.
My favourite bit is the old guy right at the end.

Saw it when it was on two years ago. My favourite is the middle-aged woman that thinks it's all just a wonderful idea because she's so cultured and sophisticated and open-minded and oh yes it's just a wonderful idea. You have no idea how well that describes half my hometown.

Mosman's not a good example though. I couldn't enter Mosman without suffering from prejudice, and I'm full-blooded Anglo-Saxon. Of course Muslims, or anyone moving somewhere where they're not the dominant ethnic, religious or cultural group, is going to have problems with prejudice. But in my experience, Australians - at least in the city, which is pretty cosmopolitan, rural areas are different - tend to be fairly open-minded when meeting someone who is not of their own background, so long as that person makes an effort to interact with them on a friendly manner.

I think Sydney reached the critical mass where most of its population realised these foreign types weren't really a threat "to our way of life" a good twenty years ago. Muslims get more hate than most, based far more on the Skaf situation and the fact that many of the more vocal arseholes - and I chose that term carefully, it describes them well - in the media tend to be Muslims: Mundine Sheik Hilaly (sp?), etc.

 

[Masada]

Well, yes, self-marginalisation (?) is an issue, but not the dominant one. It is exceptionally hard for Muslims to enter into many other communities, so they cannot enter into other communities, to a large degree, without facing great prejudice. Take the following, for example:

I hate to say it Camikaze but that isn't great prejudice... those are just normal people voicing fairly modest concerns about something that is alien to them. The real litmus test would be when they built the thing, had the calls for prayers and had people actually attending it. But in any case, if the worst rile you can get out of people is, “well I [insert vacuous excuse]” then your doing quite well. They have reservations which admittedly have a racial or religious content and that is to some extent understandable but that is what Council and indeed the Muslim community needs to smooth over with consultation and interaction on a personal level. You can’t impose unilaterally a major project on any community without consultation and not expect some kind of negative response even for things as small as a bus-stop there are simply to many stakeholders and viewpoints to deal with. (And yes I’ve seen some pretty heated debate from interested parties about the placement of bus-stops).

But in my experience, Australians - at least in the city, which is pretty cosmopolitan, rural areas are different - tend to be fairly open-minded when meeting someone who is not of their own background, so long as that person makes an effort to interact with them on a friendly manner.

I support the notion that we should speed up the immigration process for people willing to settle in rural & remote areas with skills. I even support the notion that they should be given access to loans in order to start businesses if there is no existing business in the same field or a related one in the area.

I think Sydney reached the critical mass where most of its population realised these foreign types weren't really a threat "to our way of life" a good twenty years ago. Muslims get more hate than most, based far more on the Skaf situation and the fact that many of the more vocal arseholes - and I chose that term carefully, it describes them well - in the media tend to be Muslims: Mundine Sheik Hilaly (sp?), etc.

... I'm yet to meet anyone who supports him and I have a number of Muslim friends.

 

[holy king]

Do you think he deserves to die for this? There are both mitigating and unmitigating corcumstances here

no he doesnt. why let him take the easy way out?

 

[Camikaze]

I hate to say it Camikaze but that isn't great prejudice... those are just normal people voicing fairly modest concerns about something that is alien to them. The real litmus test would be when they built the thing, had the calls for prayers and had people actually attending it. But in any case, if the worst rile you can get out of people is, “well I [insert vacuous excuse]” then your doing quite well. They have reservations which admittedly have a racial or religious content and that is to some extent understandable but that is what Council and indeed the Muslim community needs to smooth over with consultation and interaction on a personal level. You can’t impose unilaterally a major project on any community without consultation and not expect some kind of negative response even for things as small as a bus-stop there are simply to many stakeholders and viewpoints to deal with. (And yes I’ve seen some pretty heated debate from interested parties about the placement of bus-stops).

Well, sure, it (Mosman) is a bit of a ridiculous situation, but it is still, nevertheless, demonstrates in-built prejudice in the populace, be it apparently modest or not. It would never have been built, however, due to that in built prejudice, so the real litmus test would never have come.

Perhaps a better case in point would be the current situation in Camden (I'm not sure if you are aware of it or not), about the creation of a Muslim school. There are fair enough concerns on a non-discriminatory level, involving government educational property regulations, and local traffic and planning issues, but many, many, many residents are complaining, in a Hanson-esque fashion, about the fact that they don't want Muslims in their backyard, purely for racist reasons. I'm actually rather proud that my church (UCA) has been the only religious organisation to actually come out and say, "You know, Muslims aren't actually all that evil." But, be the proposed school ridiculous or not, the prejudice in the Camden community would be pretty hard to overcome, no matter how much a Muslim tried to avoid marginalising themselves.

 

[Masada]

Well, sure, it (Mosman) is a bit of a ridiculous situation, but it is still, nevertheless, demonstrates in-built prejudice in the populace, be it apparently modest or not. It would never have been built, however, due to that in built prejudice, so the real litmus test would never have come.

How can you be sure of that? The audience was skeptical but not overtly hostile to the notion. At least in terms of impact its important to note that it was "being built" and was not merely on the drawing board so with that in mind I think its fair to infer that people were not about to get the pitchforks out. I'm honestly inclined to believe that you could rile more people up by saying something along the lines of "a knock-in shop is going to be built on your main street."

Perhaps a better case in point would be the current situation in Camden (I'm not sure if you are aware of it or not), about the creation of a Muslim school. There are fair enough concerns on a non-discriminatory level, involving government educational property regulations, and local traffic and planning issues, but many, many, many residents are complaining, in a Hanson-esque fashion, about the fact that they don't want Muslims in their backyard, purely for racist reasons. I'm actually rather proud that my church (UCA) has been the only religious organisation to actually come out and say, "You know, Muslims aren't actually all that evil." But, be the proposed school ridiculous or not, the prejudice in the Camden community would be pretty hard to overcome, no matter how much a Muslim tried to avoid marginalising themselves.

To paraphrase something you said earlier, I would plead that that's an isolated case; probably isolated around Camden.

@Bold: Rubbish, its very hard to hate people good neighbors, people who get riled up when the youth stand outside the shops, when your kids play together and when you work in the same dead end jobs. What is happening is nothing new the Greek community remember after the Second World War being questioned about being Communists because of the Civil War. It doesn't take long to figure out that some fellow up the road isn't going to blow you up screaming "die infidel" (probably after the first couple of days or so).

*

Australia on the whole is pretty tolerant sure some people are racist but they tend to be the minority (and generally speaking older).

 

[Camikaze]

How can you be sure of that? The audience was skeptical but not overtly hostile to the notion. At least in terms of impact its important to note that it was "being built" and was not merely on the drawing board so with that in mind I think its fair to infer that people were not about to get the pitchforks out. I'm honestly inclined to believe that you could rile more people up by saying something along the lines of "a knock-in shop is going to be built on your main street."

The words of Julian Morrow were, "There's a proposal before council for a mosque." They wouldn't have got violent about it unless it actually was brought up at a council meeting, or more widely publicised.

To paraphrase something you said earlier, I would plead that that's an isolated case; probably isolated around Camden.

I reckon the same thing would have happened in Mosman, or any non-Western suburb.

@Bold: Rubbish, its very hard to hate people good neighbors, people who get riled up when the youth stand outside the shops, when your kids play together and when you work in the same dead end jobs. What is happening is nothing new the Greek community remember after the Second World War being questioned about being Communists because of the Civil War. It doesn't take long to figure out that some fellow up the road isn't going to blow you up screaming "die infidel" (probably after the first couple of days or so).

They people are completely unreasonable, though. It is kind of the 'in thing' to hate Muslims in some areas. Rife prejudice ensues. There are just too many people set in their ways to overcome the marginalisation by the community easily. And it's a bit different to treatment of non-Anglo immigrants after WWII, due to the simple fact that the media is much more persuasive nowadays (or so I'm led to believe). Conflict sells, and so is tacitly promoted, upholding it as a institution in many communities.

Australia on the whole is pretty tolerant sure some people are racist but they tend to be the minority (and generally speaking older).

It is interesting to note that older people have in-built prejudice that they aren't even aware of. For instance, my grandparents, who are pretty progressive and quite tolerant people, still use phrases with seemingly racist undertones, or at least undertones noting difference and fear, or distance, from that difference. Thankyou Menzies for your legacy.

 

[RedRalph]

Lads, threadjacking

 

[kuukkeli]

I'm not, because not everyone who is in favour of the death penalty would neccesarily want it applied here.

I agree.

To me it boils down to nature of war. If the Iraqi civilians were considered as allies and the allied troops were under the assumption that their mission was to liberate those people then let this murdering scum die. On the other hand if Iraqi people were considered as enemies and war itself was against Iraq instead of just Saddam then I wouldn't even care. I assume the former is closer to truth so I'm leaning towards death penalty.

And yes, as barbaric and cruel it may sound I don't believe that civilians exist outside the war and the whole concept of war crime is in my opinion hypocritical. Countries in war are free to make agreements on such matters but when stripped to the core the war has no rules or morality.

Army benefits from certain traits that have no place in normal life within modern society and at times things will get ugly. I don't consider murder, rape or torture during the war as inherently wrong - such havoc is the black shadow of war. How nihilistic of me, again.

 

[Masada]

Duly noted. Guess which thread is the new one