Your Nation's Greatest Leaders

[Evie]

The number ratio at Poitiers is open to question. I've seen figures ranging from "not far to even number" to "six on one". As far as being taken by a strategy that already worked once (more accurately, a repeat of a variation on one), it's hardly the first or last time in human history.

Beyond that, I never said he wanted to do reform, or would have done them. I said - and I maintain - that he couldn't have reformed had he wanted to. You don't reorganize your whole nation in the middle of a war, particularly not when that reorganizing involves weakening your nobility in any form.

He wasn't a brilliant monarch by any stretch of the imagination, but I contend he might not be in place on a list of the worst either.

(Neither might Pétain, I add. They were both the victims of any number of factors, most of which they couldn't have done all that much to change.)

 

[sydhe]

Charles the Simple deserves some mention among bad French rulers. After a series of Viking raids he finally conceded Normandy to the Vikings. He managed to get deposed like his uncle, Charles the Fat, for general incompetence.

 

[Plotinus]

What's wrong with "conceding" Normandy to the Vikings? It stopped the raids, didn't it?

Amusing fact, which I hope is really true: Rollo, the Viking leader, was supposed to kiss Charles' foot as part of the ceremony where he was given control of Normandy. Being a burly Viking, he refused to do this, but a compromise was reached whereby one of his men would do it instead. At the ceremony, the Viking given this task didn't kneel down to kiss Charles' foot - instead he bent down, picked up the foot and raised it to his lips, causing Charles to topple over backwards.

All the same, I don't see how allowing part of his domain to be ruled by someone else makes someone a bad king. I'd say it's a good indication that that king cares about some things more than his own personal power. If Charles had refused to give Normandy as a fief to Rollo and allowed the raids to continue instead, would he have been a better king?

 

[Verbose]

If Charles had refused to give Normandy as a fief to Rollo and allowed the raids to continue instead, would he have been a better king?

Especially considering what a pillar of strength the Normans became for furthering all things French later in the Middle Ages.

 

[Steph]

Especially considering what a pillar of strength the Normans became for furthering all things French later in the Middle Ages.

And making England at last a civilized country by invading it. To bad the English screwed it later

 

[puglover]

1. Abraham Lincoln
2. Theodore Roosevelt
3. George Washington
4. James K. Polk
5. Franklin Roosevelt

And a special shout-out to Andrew Jackson for being so thug-rich.

Great choices. But I'd make a couple arrangements.
1. Lincoln
2. Washington
3. T. Roosevelt
4. Polk
5. Jefferson

 

[Squonk]

::: Catherine The Great (Back you accursed Turks!)

You know, Poles, Lithuanians and Ukrainians don't like her as well...

As for Poland:

1) Boleslaw Chrobry / Wielki (Boleslav the Great) - mostly for conquests (Lusatia - modern Saxony and part of Brandenburg in Germany; Bohemia; Moravia; Slovakia; parts of Prussia; parts of Ukraine, including capture of Kiev), being the first king, establishing church hierarchy, importing saint Adalbert, establishing diplomatic relations with Byzantines and stuff like this
2) Kazimierz Wielki (Casimir the Great) - he didn't manage to do all that he could, but having inherited the weak, barely living state, surrounded by enemies, he doubled or more its territory, vassalised certain other duchies, created university at Cracow, built a great number of city walls, castles, etc., he simply turned the newly re-established, crippled Kingdom of Poland into a strong state once more.
2,5) Kazimierz Jagiellonczyk (Casimir the Jagiellonian) - he was not the greatest ruler, but I think he deserves a honorary mention. During his reign polish-lithuanian union was the biggest teritorially, he defeated Teutonic Order and regained for Poland access to the sea, he assured Jagiellon succession in the kingdoms of Bohemia and Hungary; also, the fundaments for polish parliamentarism were laid during his reign.
3) Zygmunt II August (Sigismund II August) was not the most successful king when it comes to wars. He captured Livonia (Latvia and part of Estonia), but lost some parts of Belarus to Muscuvy. Yet, his reign, together with reign of his father, are considered the height of polish culture. Of religious freedom, of political freedom. During his reign a pernament union was established between Poland and Lithuania.

 

[aronnax]

And making England at last a civilized country by invading it. To bad the English screwed it later

Arent you a witty Frenchman

 

[JohnRM]

In no particular order...

George Washington is largely responsible for the fact that this nation is a Republic rather than a monarchy. He could have been King, but he turned it down, knowing better. He wasn't perfect, as a man, but he made an invaluable contribution to this nation.


John F. Kennedy and Robert F. Kennedy were both instrumental in the handling of the Cuban Missile Crisis of 1962. Many others would not have been able to hold their restraint and composure enough to prevent a nuclear war. Those thirteen days saved millions, if not billions of lives.


Dwight D. Eisenhower was the Supreme Allied Commander of World War II and was a brilliant strategist, tactician, and overall leader. He was also President of the United States for two fine terms.


Robert E. Lee was Commanding General of the Army of Northern Virginia during the American Civil War, but his inclusion on this list comes not for his wartime efforts, but for his actions during and after the surrender of the Army of Northern Virginia and the end of the war. Robert E. Lee was given the opportunity to disperse the Confederate Army and continue the conflict through guerilla warfare, which could have lasted years or even decades longer, but instead opted for reconciliation. He ordered his troops to surrender, to go back to their homes, and to get on with their lives thereby preventing an ongoing conflict that could have been still be going on today.


Martin Luther King, Jr. was a civil rights leader during the 1950s and 1960s. His peaceful approach to ending the inequities between the races kept our country from spinning out of control and into a racial turmoil that could have been disasterous for our soul as a nation.

 

[Huayna Capac357]

I think that the Leaders on Mount Rushmore are the greatest, except put FDR instead of TR, and add MLK.

 

[RickFGS]

Portugal:

Rei Afonso Henriques - kicked Spain and Moors out of Iberia and founded a nation.

Rei Dom João II - superb statesmen, started portuguese golden age

Infante Dom Henrique - Founder of portuguese navigators academy and many overseas enterprises

Rei Dom Manuel I - another superb statesmen who carried the work of D. João II and discovered the ocean route to India through Vasco da Gama and created the empire.

Rei D. Dinis - for the economical and agricultural development of a young nation.

Doutor Mário Soares - President and Prime Minister of Portugal after the 25 de Abril revolution, developing the countries devastated economy and social lifes and joining the european union.

Doutor António Oliveira Guterres - superb statesman that in only 7 years of prime minister turned Portugal into one of the most growing economies of the late 20th century.

 

[innonimatu]

Portugal:

Rei Afonso Henriques - kicked Spain and Moors out of Iberia and founded a nation.

Spain didn't even exist. He simply broke his county from the kingdom of Leon, defeated his own mother the countess, proclaimed himself king and eventually succeeded in bribing the Pope to confirm his title. Of course, his success in the wars against the muslim Taifas (small kingdoms) to the south (doubling the territory he controlled) did increase his reputation and helped him in being recognized as king by the other kings of western Europe.

Rei Dom João II - superb statesmen, started portuguese golden age

No argument there!

Rei Dom Manuel I - another superb statesmen who carried the work of D. João II and discovered the ocean route to India through Vasco da Gama and created the empire.

He squandered a lot of the fruits of João II's work. He also complied with the castillan demand that the jews should be expelled from the Iberian Peninsula, and in doing so harmed the kingdom immensely. In only João II had guarded himself and his son better against Isabella's assassins...

Doutor Mário Soares - President and Prime Minister of Portugal after the 25 de Abril revolution, developing the countries devastated economy and social lifes and joining the european union.

Oh, please... everyone knew the EU was the only option left by then. Soares was mostly irrelevant before the revolution and played a dubious role during the two critical years that followed it. I won't argue that he became one of the most influential actors during that period. But his legacy was a "partidocracy" that has that eventually placed all power in the country on the hands of mediocre people who support each other through their little clubs (Masons, Opus Dei, not to mention the political parties themselves...), vetting admittance to the political and economic live - only those who agree to perpetuate their corrupt system are allowed in.

Doutor António Oliveira Guterres - superb statesman that in only 7 years of prime minister turned Portugal into one of the most growing economies of the late 20th century.

You MUST be joking. The guy basically spend 4 years spending EU money and a further 3 inflating a stock and real estate bubble that finally exploded by 2002 (as it happened elsewhere). Because he had already inflated real estate (a consequence of having Portugal join the Euro zone with its low interest rates form the start) the country sunk into an economic depression (or should I say a swamp?) and has been stagnant since then - the current government has given um on waiting for the economy to improve and is simply putting forth some false statistics claiming a little "economic growth".

 

[TheLastOne36]

You know, Poles, Lithuanians and Ukrainians don't like her as well...

As for Poland:

1) Boleslaw Chrobry / Wielki (Boleslav the Great) - mostly for conquests (Lusatia - modern Saxony and part of Brandenburg in Germany; Bohemia; Moravia; Slovakia; parts of Prussia; parts of Ukraine, including capture of Kiev), being the first king, establishing church hierarchy, importing saint Adalbert, establishing diplomatic relations with Byzantines and stuff like this
2) Kazimierz Wielki (Casimir the Great) - he didn't manage to do all that he could, but having inherited the weak, barely living state, surrounded by enemies, he doubled or more its territory, vassalised certain other duchies, created university at Cracow, built a great number of city walls, castles, etc., he simply turned the newly re-established, crippled Kingdom of Poland into a strong state once more.
2,5) Kazimierz Jagiellonczyk (Casimir the Jagiellonian) - he was not the greatest ruler, but I think he deserves a honorary mention. During his reign polish-lithuanian union was the biggest teritorially, he defeated Teutonic Order and regained for Poland access to the sea, he assured Jagiellon succession in the kingdoms of Bohemia and Hungary; also, the fundaments for polish parliamentarism were laid during his reign.
3) Zygmunt II August (Sigismund II August) was not the most successful king when it comes to wars. He captured Livonia (Latvia and part of Estonia), but lost some parts of Belarus to Muscuvy. Yet, his reign, together with reign of his father, are considered the height of polish culture. Of religious freedom, of political freedom. During his reign a pernament union was established between Poland and Lithuania.

Missed a few:

Jan Sobieski III - IMO one of our best generals if not the best. Austria, if it wasn't for him, you could be muslim! (not that it's a bad thing).

Józef Piłsudski - Polish-Soviet war. Yes, he might have not been the greatest, but he has accomplished alot during his life. (yes he was born in a lithuanian village. But lithuanian towns pre WWII were mostly 65% polish, 35% lithuanian/jew/russian/ukrainian anyway)

 

[Squonk]

Missed a few:

Jan Sobieski III - IMO one of our best generals if not the best. Austria, if it wasn't for him, you could be muslim! (not that it's a bad thing).

He was a good general, but Poland barely profited from his victories, and he was a weak monarch, with no achievements but Wilanow palace perhaps. I left him out of the list on purpouse.

Józef Piłsudski - Polish-Soviet war. Yes, he might have not been the greatest, but he has accomplished alot during his life. (yes he was born in a lithuanian village. But lithuanian towns pre WWII were mostly 65% polish, 35% lithuanian/jew/russian/ukrainian anyway)

Again, while there was some greatness in him, because of what he's done in 1926 and later on, I left him out.

 

[Huayna Capac357]

Historical inaccuracies make me sad.

Please, name some historical inaccuracies. Name one time when MLK advocated violence or inequality. Also, MLK was a Baptist minister. He was inspired by Gandhi's idea of satyagraha (sp?), which means to have love for all men, nonviolent resistance, and peace.

 

[RickFGS]

You MUST be joking. The guy basically spend 4 years spending EU money and a further 3 inflating a stock and real estate bubble that finally exploded by 2002 (as it happened elsewhere). Because he had already inflated real estate (a consequence of having Portugal join the Euro zone with its low interest rates form the start) the country sunk into an economic depression (or should I say a swamp?) and has been stagnant since then - the current government has given um on waiting for the economy to improve and is simply putting forth some false statistics claiming a little "economic growth".

And its because arguments and people who don´t even know what they are talking about that Portugal fell into a self caused depression, needless to say that in a nations that are those who come to build and tohse who come to fill their pockets from others efforts, destroy, sell to spain the gains and then put the blame on the formers, kinda like, whos blame is this? Put it on the "jews", and other minorities and let me buy another paradise island in Brazil and when things get though, i´ll just run for President of the EU suported by my CIA american friends....

Save Portugal from mediocracy pls...start thinking with your heads and less with your pockets and help those who need...Guterres was a genius out of his time, but of course a country were mediocracy is prized like no other would never aprove such a leader, they rather prefered the "cherne" or the corrupted followers who just spend all the money on golden bathroom´s and local goverments mansions, afterall, we portuguese love luxury, too bad we don´t invest in the future, only in parties, big brothers, Operação Triunfos and so on...

Now lets compare- Guterres

to Cavaco - Cavaco had a very good first 4 yeras but the mess he did in the following 4 almost screwed the first 4, and we have to admit he is doing am excellent job as president now (and no im not being sarcastic, i´m being honest here).
to Durão Barroso - cashed in the Guterres money and investments, launched a fake crisis and left with the tresury to Brazil, Switzerland and EU, very clever indeed.
to Santana Lopes - transformed the goverment into a circus and cashed in the remaining money that Barroso hadn´t the time to flee with, oh yes, and built a Casino, very important social (economic maybe) indeed.

as for Guterres- his wife died from a fatal disease and instead of the countries support after developing the economy and helping the most in need, the media just moked him, long goes the saying that when in need people people are in their best hour, but money and power corrupts everything, and when they thought they were already "living it large" they just dismissed him like a rag, poor of us....
As for his believes, he his and was a catholic, not a manson or any other fake arguments you are sugesting.

as for the current Socrates- he his doing much better then Durão or Santana in infrastrutures and public works, but he still follows the same cruel and exploitive line in social and economic terms then the previous, he overtaxes, he crushes the middle economic class and the youth university degree is underpayed and undersecured, nedless to say that for the fisr timein history, the growth-death rate is at a deficit!! And no its not because old people live longer, but beacuse younger people don´t have money to support more then one child!!! or even one!!!

You clearly need to read more and open your eyes before its to late, unless of course, you are or have benificted from the "cash in" operations that followed, money tends to mold opinions everywhere and everyone as a price.

Smaller parties need more power in Portugal and end this bi-partidarism before they become one big elite that swallows everyone.

 

[jonatas]

On my shortlist of Portugal's great leaders I have:

1) Dom João II - The "perfect prince", a worthy rival to the most powerful Castilian monarchs, his age represents from my idealized perspective the golden age of Portugal (not the Manueline era). Centralization of royal power, repression of the Dukes of Bragança, able handling of Castilian pressure and continuation of the Infante Dom Henriques' policy of Atlantic exploration all make him the greatest leader Portugal ever had.

2) Infante Dom Henrique - initiated the modern colonial era (1415) and waged war in Morocco. As Grandmaster of the Ordem de Cristo he was the great sponsor of Atlantic exploration and died heavily in debt as a result, but his vision influenced Dom João II and firmly fixed Portugal's place in global history.

3) Afonso de Albuquerque - The most competent viceroy and powerful administrator of Portugal's Asian possessions during the 'Golden Age'.

Dom Manuel I doesn't make it, as he reaped the benefits of Dom João II and the Infante Henrique plus had an excellent Viceroy (Albuquerque) more than anything else.

And

If only João II had guarded himself and his son better against Isabella's assassins...

Indeed!

 

[PotatoSamurai]

(America)
1. Franklin D. Roosevelt
2. Abraham Lincoln
3. John F. Kennedy
4. Teddy Roosevelt

I don't know why anyone would think George Washington was one of our best presidents. He did next to nothing during his presidency, and the only reason he became president in the first place is because he had popular appeal; he had no experience as a statesman at all.

 

[Swedishguy]

RONALD REAGAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WOOO! YEAH!!!!!!! REAGAN, REAGAN, REAGAN!!!!!!!!! WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!

PER ALBIN HANSSON!
WOOO! YEAH!!!!!!! PER ALBIN, PER ALBIN, PER ALBIN!!!!!!!!! WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Head Serf]

Well, here's mine for America:
1. Washington
2. T. Roosevelt
3. Lincoln
4. Jefferson
5. Either Reagan or Truman