Your Thoughts on Service Academies

[GenMarshall]

2. Should there even be direct civilian to military officer commissioning paths or should all military officers at least prove themselves first as enlisted soldiers?

There should be another program for those whom are too old for ROTC yet have a college degree.

 

[otago]

Reading of the arrogance of some West point types is amusing, just before four or five of them graduated they were out on exercise, they believed it was good form to throw their rifles into a pond expecting of course that enlisted types (peasants) should retrieve them, a few Sargeants spent an hour diving for them.
If officer cadets had tried that on here they would have been diving for them with a rock around each neck to help them stay down.
With a damn good chance they would have been thrown out in the last week.

Young officers know it all, yes meet one or two like that, they end up being followed just to see what they will get wrong next.

When one talks of class systems the US military is a case in point, all officers are gentlemen/women ?

 

[Ecofarm]

I think you are much better off getting a liberal arts education paid for by the ROTC program,

A liberal arts degree is a joke. Every moron working at the mall has one.

 

[Bill3000]

A liberal arts degree is a joke. Every moron working at the mall has one.

Uh, he said liberal arts education, not degree.

 

[Ecofarm]

So he recommends taking BS classes but not bothering to get the degree. Fantastic.

With the degree one can be an assistant manager at The Gap or Olive Garden. With a few classes and no degree, one can probably be a shift supervisor.

 

[Karalysia]

A liberal arts degree is the best. I recommend it strongly.

 

[Bill3000]

So he recommends taking BS classes but not bothering to get the degree. Fantastic.

With the degree one can be an assistant manager at The Gap or Olive Garden. With a few classes and no degree, one can probably be a shift supervisor.

No, you misunderstand him. "Liberal arts education" pretty much means your standard undergraduate experience in America, such as residence on campus and two-year exploration before one declares a major, not specifically referring to degrees which end in "studies."

 

[Ecofarm]

In general, socialists and commies love lib-arts degrees because they lead to muddle-brained unproductive people who's vote can be manipulated by populist give-aways.

I also suspect that lib-arts degrees are the major source of conspiracy theorists, because the BS classes required do not develop critical thinking skills at all.

 

[Karalysia]

In general, socialists and commies love lib-arts degrees because they lead to muddle-brained unproductive people who's vote can be manipulated by populist give-aways.

I also suspect that lib-arts degrees are the major source of conspiracy theorists, because the BS classes required do not develop critical thinking skills at all.

That in interesting conspiracy theory friend.

 

[IglooDame]

Frankly, I don't see much need for service academies. I think they are far too specialized, which means your general education is sacrificed in order to get in all the military-related course material.

I disagree that one's general education is sacrificed, and would like to see your basis for asserting so.

As a political science major (and there are only three other "soft" majors - non-science/engineering - at USNA, History, English, and another which escapes me at the moment) I had to take a year of chemistry, physics, electrical engineering, and mechanical engineering. Also math up through calculus. Certainly there was plenty of military related course material (naval science, naval law, leadership, and such) but there was to my mind a full spectrum of both science/engineering and "liberal arts" courses that would hold to that at any solid university elsewhere. And not that many people have much opportunity, but I was able to compare directly in one particular hands-on situation: I got back home in time at the end of my freshman year to visit with my best friend who had his chemistry final exam at RPI. Since there wasn't any sort of attendance record, as a joke I went with him and took that exam too. Anecdotal evidence rather than data, but the exam was to my mind a little easier than the one I'd taken a week before.

I think you are much better off getting a liberal arts education paid for by the ROTC program, unless you plan to spend the rest of your life in the military. Then, you are better off going to a service academy. But I think in the civilian world, a degree from a regular college is going to mean more to most prospective employers than a degree from a service academy.

I have no direct comparison to make and can only rely on hearsay, but prospective employers (and other business acquaintances) seem uniformly impressed by service academy degrees.

Academic rigor? I don't think so.

Most of the people that I have known who have gone to service academies have been high school jocks with fairly mediocre GPAs. Or course, there are exceptions. But those people can typically go to any college in the country on a full scholarship, so they usually do.

I'm not sure what your link is supposed to prove, being directed at enlisted applicants to the service academies. Amongst my own classmates, most were high school jocks with fairly good GPAs - the academy selection process stresses well-rounded individuals: athletics, academics, community participation, and evidence of leadership potential. My 1400 SAT was roughly average among my peers.

 

[Ecofarm]

I'm sure in the USNA they taught you how to swab a deck, but using Forma to do so is not nice.

 

[IglooDame]

If you could to to Harvard on a full athletic scholarship or go to the USMA, which would you choose?

And now that Navy has decided to become serious about college football, there go another 80 or so slots to the real jocks.

But I agree those without the congressional nomination typically do need to have much higher SAT scores than those without, merely due to the demand. The possibility of a free college education is difficult for many people to ignore.

There are a lot of roads to those slots. The PDF I posted earlier showed one of them. And many of those roads do not require academic excellence. Just look at John McCain.

You know what they call the person that graduated at the bottom of their medical school class? "Doctor". Seriously, are you going to knock Yale because they admitted and graduated George W Bush? I graduated in the bottom third of my class, myself.

You misunderstand. You cannot get into any service academy without either a personal recommendation from your congressmen or from the President or Vice President of the US. Congressmen get to pick ten each for each school, and each academy selects one of them. The President and VP can send as many as they wish.

EDIT: I think you also get consideration if your parent was killed or MIA overseas.

You're correct, at least as of the early 90s (when I stopped keeping track), except I think for the enlisted selectees, and I think children of graduates get automatic nominations subject to admissions standards. At the time I went, congressmen could select a primary and nine alternates (I was an alternate for Sen. Moynihan, but the primary for Rep. Gerald Solomon). And for what it's worth, my classmates by and large did not seem to have "politically-connected" parents, and I'm certain that I did not.

And to MB: Just a minor quibble, that all the service academy graduates are referred to as 'ring-knockers', not just the woops.

 

[Lockesdonkey]

Hello all, I have been lurking on this forum for the better part of 4 years and have to say that i enjoy most of the topics that have been debated on and even the most trivial things have a healthy amount of discussion.

Awhile ago I was appointed to go to West Point (offered admissions not just a nomination) and am planning to start attending this summer. Strangely in the past 4 years of me lurking on this site I haven't read any discussions on the service academies in the US or in the other parts of word besides about the west point being used as a background for Obama's speech. Mainly I have a two questions for you the OT to comment on and if anyone has anything else he/she would like to add, feel free to add it.

I don't know about answers to your questions, but I find in my experience that the people I've met from the service academies--particularly West Point--are scarily smart and well-informed, and don't need extra education in anything.

Congratulations on your appointment, by the way. And if you join their Model UN team, I hope to see you on the circuit!

 

[IglooDame]

Reading of the arrogance of some West point types is amusing, just before four or five of them graduated they were out on exercise, they believed it was good form to throw their rifles into a pond expecting of course that enlisted types (peasants) should retrieve them, a few Sargeants spent an hour diving for them.
If officer cadets had tried that on here they would have been diving for them with a rock around each neck to help them stay down.
With a damn good chance they would have been thrown out in the last week.

Young officers know it all, yes meet one or two like that, they end up being followed just to see what they will get wrong next.

When one talks of class systems the US military is a case in point, all officers are gentlemen/women ?

I'd love to see the link - I can't conceive of anyone amongst my classmates doing such a thing, not least because of the importance placed on maintaining control of one's weapon, nevermind the piss-poor leadership skills it would display.

One thing the academies (and ROTCs, near as I can tell) seem to neglect is the importance of the senior NCOs in getting their real military/naval education. Junior officers are indeed largely expected to be in some ways clueless, and the senior NCOs (in the USN, the chiefs) will help turn them into actual leaders within a couple years. Whether there is some psychological underpinning to that blind spot I don't know but expect so; It would be tough to hit the deckplates running and imagine yourself as the next (insert legendary naval officer here) if you've been trained that a grizzled old chief that intones "sir" as a four-letter word is going to be your life-ring for surviving your first shipboard tour.

And yes, as they occasionally note: Gentlemen/women, by act of Congress. Seriously, don't try to get too much mileage out of that, you'll only look stupid.

 

[Zkribbler]

When one talks of class systems the US military is a case in point, all officers are gentlemen/women ?

As decreed by Congress.

 

[IglooDame]

Hello all, I have been lurking on this forum for the better part of 4 years and have to say that i enjoy most of the topics that have been debated on and even the most trivial things have a healthy amount of discussion.

Awhile ago I was appointed to go to West Point (offered admissions not just a nomination) and am planning to start attending this summer. Strangely in the past 4 years of me lurking on this site I haven't read any discussions on the service academies in the US or in the other parts of word besides about the west point being used as a background for Obama's speech. Mainly I have a two questions for you the OT to comment on and if anyone has anything else he/she would like to add, feel free to add it.

1. Are Service Academies even needed nowadays? A majority of officers in the US come through ROTC programs nowadays and after going to a service academy or not a newly commissioned officer in the same branch will attend the same specialized training for his/her selected branch.

2. Should there even be direct civilian to military officer commissioning paths or should all military officers at least prove themselves first as enlisted soldiers?

Good lord, I almost forgot to address the OP. First off, congrats on your appointment.

1. I think so, but I'm biased.

2. I don't think so. Certainly learning to follow is a prerequisite for learning to lead, but academy officers do "follow" for at least three of their four academy years. And given that (with the occasional exception, such as former CNO Admiral Mike Boorda) most ROTC/Academy officers are approaching retirement when making flag/general rank, it would skew the promotion paths.

 

[otago]

In general, socialists and commies love lib-arts degrees because they lead to muddle-brained unproductive people who's vote can be manipulated by populist give-aways.

I also suspect that lib-arts degrees are the major source of conspiracy theorists, because the BS classes required do not develop critical thinking skills at all.

This liberal dislikes liberal art degrees with a passion.
One problem with those who come out of university with a lib art degree in Icelandic macrame, what job can they do.

Nope, while I do not agree that University is needed for all those who do go should come out with a degree that they can get a job in.
Engineering, Surveying, etc etc

 

[GenMarshall]

So he recommends taking BS classes but not bothering to get the degree. Fantastic.

With the degree one can be an assistant manager at The Gap or Olive Garden. With a few classes and no degree, one can probably be a shift supervisor.

Actually, that's backwards.

Assistant Managers rank above a Supervisor (regular, floor, and/or shift). Managers have the capacity to hire and fire employees, supervisors don't.

When one talks of class systems the US military is a case in point, all officers are gentlemen/women ?

 

[Lockesdonkey]

What if education is not about getting a job but rather developing the social and cultural literacy necessary to be a good citizen? Just saying.

Also, there are some jobs for which the requirements are awfully vague, and could generally use people with a wide variety of peculiar backgrounds. For all the jokes about thinking deep thoughts about the meaning of flipping burgers, philosophy majors do tend to get jobs--in job areas that have nothing to do with philosophy directly, but benefit from the training in intellectual rigor that they get, and (depending on what kind of philosophy they studied) strength in analysis of problems and ideas, of words and sentences, of dilemmas, and so on. Granted, a lot of these are in the government (the Intelligence Community, DoD, and DoS soak these grads up like it's nobody's business), but having met them and seen what they do, it's actually quite a lot and they do benefit from their degree.

Also, did you know that the best undergraduate program to be in if you want to get a law degree is probably English (or have you not seen the amount of stuff your average lawyer has to write in a day?), quickly followed by some kind of philosophy? Especially if the philosophy program you take has an Analytic, ethical, or classical focus. And depending on the program, it may just make you suited for business school (of all things): an education in politics and the meaning of justice has surprising applications to effective management.

 

[Formaldehyde]

You misunderstand. You cannot get into any service academy without either a personal recommendation from your congressmen or from the President or Vice President of the US. Congressmen get to pick ten each for each school, and each academy selects one of them. The President and VP can send as many as they wish.

EDIT: I think you also get consideration if your parent was killed or MIA overseas.

I am referring to the alternate nomination process:

http://admissions.usma.edu/FAQs/faqs_admission.cfm

Q: If I have an alternate nomination, can I be admitted?

Yes. The majority of the Members of Congress use a competitive nomination process, whereby 10 candidates are named to compete for a single vacancy. A minority of the members of Congress names a single candidate as their primary nomination, and some choose to number, or rank order the alternates. If you have an excellent academic and extracurricular activity record, however, you have a good chance of gaining admission with an alternate nomination. Each year several hundred of the best qualified alternate Congressional and military service nominees are offered admission from the West Point waiting list

If you can get your congressman to nominate you in his primary list of 10, you don't really need very high academic standings.

Q: What are the academic requirements?

To qualify academically at West Point you should have an above average high school or college academic record. A complete transcript of your academic achievement will be evaluated to determine your qualification. You should perform well on the ACT, Inc. Assessment Program Test (ACT) or the SAT Reasoning Test. These tests demonstrate an indication of your potential for academic success during your first year in college.

I disagree that one's general education is sacrificed, and would like to see your basis for asserting so.

It is simply a matter of time. While you were playing soldier, the other college students are typically taking academic classes taught by real tenured professors for the most part.

Seriously, are you going to knock Yale because they admitted and graduated George W Bush?

You do know he got in based on who he was, not by his academic standing, right? That this sort of thing happens quite frequently with rich and influential families, right?

I graduated in the bottom third of my class, myself. :

There you go. I bet you weren't any A student in high school either. Play any high school sports?