YOU'RE FIRED!

[Berzerker]

But does Trump have any authority or power to actually force the NFL to take that action? No? Has he threatened any kind of sanctions or legal action against the NFL if they allow these protests to continue? No? Then that is still just a man expressing an opinion and a man expressing an opinion is not an attack on free speech, even if that man is the president.

Ever hear of Nixon's enemies list? It aint Trump's job to tell employers to fire people for criticizing government and I cant believe you think thats okay.

You seem to really be struggling with the difference between merely expressing an opinion and acting on those opinions. If I say I think you should be disbarred and no longer allowed to practice law because I disagree with your politics, but I have no authority or ability to actually do anything about it, then I have not threatened or suppressed your rights at all. Now if I were in a position to disbar you and actually did it because I disagreed with your politics, then I have attacked and suppressed your right to free speech.

He did act... he told employers to fire people for expressing their opinions. As for the analogy, you dont think Trump can do anything to the people who refuse to disbar a lawyer?

 

[Gori the Grey]

he told employers to fire people for expressing their opinions.

God, it pains me to defend the guy, but technically, he just asked "Wouldn't you love to see one of these NFL owners, when somebody disrespects our flag, to say get that son of a ***** out of here?"

He didn't tell anybody anything; he asked a question. A rhetorical question, given that crowd. But still, this falls shy of telling anybody what they should do.

Given that we've done a close reading of the NFL code of conduct and its "shoulds" and "shalls" and "musts," it's only fair to give that same level of close attention to Trump's actual words.

God, it pains me to defend the guy in any degree.

 

[Berzerker]

The Prez would love for your employer to fire you, but he's not telling them to fire you? The Mafioso didn't order the hit, he asked a 'rhetorical' question - wouldn't you just love to see that guy I dont like end up dead? You dont see the coercive nature of his question? NFL owners refuse and risk his wrath and maybe a nice reward awaits the compliant ones. And this guy has a vindictive streak a mile wide, so his 'suggestions' are not to be ignored lightly.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/10/04/donors-anti-trump-resistance-group-revealed.amp.html

I'm the tax man and I need to know if you're giving $$$ to anti-Trump people

 

[metalhead]

Most of Trump's behavior is best understood if you visualize him as the head of an organized crime family. It's really the only context that makes sense of any of it.

 

[Gori the Grey]

I almost added that to my post Berzerker. Evidently there is a legal standard by which people in certain contexts can be judged by what their words clearly imply, even if they don't put their wishes in so many words. It came up during the Comey firing. And the Mafia don's indirect call for a hit is the go-to example. I'm not saying that what you're saying isn't true about how owners might take the comments. I'm just saying we critics could afford to be more careful in our phrasing of the nature of the offense. "Misused the bully pulpit of the presidency to intimidate NFL owners into firing protesters" maybe, rather than "told NFL owners to."

 

[civver_764]

The Prez would love for your employer to fire you, but he's not telling them to fire you? The Mafioso didn't order the hit, he asked a 'rhetorical' question - wouldn't you just love to see that guy I dont like end up dead? You dont see the coercive nature of his question? NFL owners refuse and risk his wrath and maybe a nice reward awaits the compliant ones. And this guy has a vindictive streak a mile wide, so his 'suggestions' are not to be ignored lightly.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/10/04/donors-anti-trump-resistance-group-revealed.amp.html

I'm the tax man and I need to know if you're giving $$$ to anti-Trump people

I think you're being pretty dramatic dude. He's still entitled to his opinion. If he actually does something to the NFL besides expressing his opinion then criticize that, but all he's done here is riled up his patriotic base.

TBH I think he purposely baited the NFL players into kneeling to make them (and by extension their liberal supporters) appear un-American.

 

[metalhead]

This apparently being something you think a president ought to spend his time doing?

"Well, his hurricane response was a disorganized mess, but he made liberals look bad to a group of people confused as to the meaning of patriotism, so that's a net win."

 

[Gori the Grey]

TBH I think he purposely baited the NFL players into kneeling to make them (and by extension their liberal supporters) appear un-American.

Purposely is too strong a word for a kind of action that is actually instinctual for Trump, and for someone whose ADD prevents him from being able to form full-fledged purposes, but otherwise I think this is substantially correct.

 

[civver_764]

This apparently being something you think a president ought to spend his time doing?

Why not? He's leading the culture war on behalf of patriotic Americans. I think this is one of his smartest moves yet.

 

[metalhead]

I'm curious as to which line of the constitution says that the president's job duties include leading a culture war? And why anyone thinks the fake patriot chickenhawks is the better side?

I mean, I guess it's good that you can admit you're putting the "culture war" ahead of protecting Americans' lives on your list of priorities, but that's more than a little messed up in my opinion.

 

[civver_764]

I'm curious as to which line of the constitution says that the president's job duties include leading a culture war? And why anyone thinks the fake patriot chickenhawks is the better side?

When your team loses again in 2020 are you going to drop the smug condescension or will you double down further?

 

[metalhead]

I have heel spurs and therefore will be unable to participate in 2020. But I'll make sure to question the heroism of a man who spent years being tortured in a POW camp, when he didn't have to, on behalf of his fellow soldiers. Because apparently that is Making America Great Again.

The sad part is that Trump is using you. He doesn't care about you or your side in the culture war. He'll use it until it no longer works for him and then toss it aside. He's already given up building your precious Wall - how many more broken promises is it gonna take before you wake up and realize you've been conned?

 

[Gori the Grey]

how many more broken promises is it gonna take before you wake up and realize you've been conned?

We have another thread going right now on the irrational and self-destructive things people do once they have fallen in love.

 

[civver_764]

The sad part is that Trump is using you. He doesn't care about you or your side in the culture war. He'll use it until it no longer works for him and then toss it aside. He's already given up building your precious Wall - how many more broken promises is it gonna take before you wake up and realize you've been conned?

You're talking to a person who had virtually zero faith in our political system until Trump was elected. The very worst case is that he goes back on all of his promises, and even then we still avoided 4 years of Hillary. I have faith in the man and will continue to fight for his agenda. If he decides to go back on his agenda then that's political suicide for him and just means we'll have to find another candidate for 2020.

 

[AdrienIer]

If he decides to go back on his agenda then that's political suicide for him and just means we'll have to find another candidate for 2020.

There's no one like Adolph right ?

 

[Gori the Grey]

You're talking to a person who had virtually zero faith in our political system until Trump was elected.

Trump's appeal was, in my reading, very heavily premised on this cynicism. His appeal even to whites was a version of "What the hell have you got to lose?"

 

[metalhead]

It's sad and incredibly narcissistic that your assessment of the president starts and ends with your own narrow personal concerns. You must come from a place of extraordinary privilege to be able to have that kind of outlook.

 

[civver_764]

It's sad and incredibly narcissistic that your assessment of the president starts and ends with your own narrow personal concerns. You must come from a place of extraordinary privilege to be able to have that kind of outlook.

Lol what are you even talking about? You run out of arguments and just start throwing out ad hominems...I guess that's pretty par for the course with you.

 

[metalhead]

Arguments? We weren't having an argument. You made a statement and I made an observation about it.

There are only so many ways I can tell you that you fell for a fraud and a huckster. Your response is basically, "Who cares, if it turns out you're right we'll just find someone else." It take a blissfully privileged and sheltered outlook to care so little for anything that happens outside of your own narrow concerns. Kind of like the people who vote for Republicans strictly because they want to pay less in taxes and don't spare a thought for anything else.

 

[Berzerker]

I'm not saying that what you're saying isn't true about how owners might take the comments.

Not just the owners, the players too (and everyone else with an opinion and employer)... And how they take Trump's instruction is relevant to coercion and its effect on free speech

I'm just saying we critics could afford to be more careful in our phrasing of the nature of the offense. "Misused the bully pulpit of the presidency to intimidate NFL owners into firing protesters" maybe, rather than "told NFL owners to."

The offense is coercing (intimidation) NFL owners into firing protesting players, I dont care if the Mafioso-in-Chief told them to fire players or how we would love them if they did. Its clear what he wants...

I think you're being pretty dramatic dude. He's still entitled to his opinion. If he actually does something to the NFL besides expressing his opinion then criticize that, but all he's done here is riled up his patriotic base.

He's the Prez, how would his supporters feel if his replacement tells employers to fire them? This is like antifa coercing protesters into silence by "asking" they be fired.