YuiNES 2- The Modern World

[silver 2039]

To Iran
From Russian Federation
Re: Busher Reactor Project
CC: USA, China

Due to instability in your nation we regret to inform you that all Russian engineers working on the Busher Reactor Project, as well as the diplomats from the embassy are hereby withdrawn to ensure their safety. We cannot work with a nation undergoing a revolution. Should your regime stabilize we would be happy to begin working on the project once more but for the time being we cannot. We expect you to ensure the safety of our personnel as they are withdrawn. Russian ships will be present in the Persian Gulf to aid in the evacuation process we expect there to be no problems.

We are observing the situation closely.

Sincerely
Sergy Lavrov Foreign Minister of the Russian Federation

 

[a_propagandist]

Er, the stats are updated?

France just reverted back to the control of Shadowbound.

 

[Shadowbound]

Spoiler :

To the Shiite Rebels
From France

We pledge 20% of our budget to supporting you!

From the Shiite Rebels
To France

Thanks! You are so cool.

From France
To the Shiite Rebels

So are you. It's like we have some common link that increases our awesomeness. Like, a grey eminence.

From the Shiite Rebels
To France

Whoever he is, he must be sexy.

 

[Neverwonagame3]

Giving up on this game- for a start, I wouldn't have backed down on the Caliphate proposal, so Yui effectively forced me to do something not in my orders.

 

[a_propagandist]

Giving up on this game- for a start, I wouldn't have backed down on the Caliphate proposal, so Yui effectively forced me to do something not in my orders.

You know how unrealistic such a proposal would be?

 

[Neverwonagame3]

1- I said I would brand all opposistion to the idea of a Caliphate per se unIslamic. This would deter revolt to some extent.

2- I cultivated support amongst the army, thus allowing me to supress potential revolts.

This leaves only opposistion based in Shiite v.s Sunni, as opposed to liberalism per se. (I'll deal with that later, as I'm in a hurry)

 

[Symphony D.]

OOC: According to the CIA, Iran is 89% Shi'a. Meanwhile, according to Wikipedia:

Shi'a Muslims believe in the Imamate, in which the rulers are selected from Muhammad's Ahl al-Bayt. They believe that before his death, Muhammad had given many indications, in Ghadir Khumm particularly, that he considered Ali, his cousin and son-in-law, as his divinely chosen successor. They say that Abu Bakr had seized power by threatening and using force against Ali, and so Shi'a Muslims consider the three caliphs before Ali as usurpers. Ali and his descendants, the twelve Imams, are believed to have been the only proper leaders.

In the absence of a Caliphate headed by their Imams, some Shi'a believe that the system of Islamic government based on Vilayat-e Faqih, where an Islamic jurist or faqih rules Muslims, suffices. However this idea, developed by the Marja (Ayatollah) Ruhollah Khomeini and established in Iran, is not universally accepted among Shi'as.

The government which rules Iran, and the Shi'a in general, do not support a Caliphate.

So, you basically tried to do something which 89% of the people (and the military, and the government itself) would never support, particularly as they are currently in the phase of the cycle where the Sunni are the Great Internal Enemy to be prioritized above even the killing of the Great Satan (observe: sectarian violence in Iraq promoted by Iran vs. US troop casualties). In short, you tried to sell the country out to its greatest enemies who represent only a tiny minority. Of course your plan failed.

It's actually even more silly than Indonesia's thinly veiled attempts to acquire nuclear weapons.

 

[silver 2039]

OCC: Speaking off the record, Symphony you can bomb Iran if you'd like.

 

[Neverwonagame3]

IF the revolt was based on the Shia-Sunni distinction (as opposed to liberalism), then I still have these points:
1- I had cultivated support amongst the army. Given how I phrased it, it's understandable if Yui misunderstood what I said. But as he didn't, this means the army would have more pro my ideas then the rest of the country (thus meaning at least some would support me against the revolters).
2- The QUOTE YOU GAVE said that the Shias do not universally accept the idea of Islamic jurors, which is a mere SUBSTITUTE for the Caliphate.
3- I would not have backed down. The mod was effectively making me do something not in my orders.

EDIT: IF the choice was between backing down and the revolution suceeding, it is understandable he would have me back down. But under the circumstances given he should not have had me back down- I would have that choice after the update.

4- At the minimum, this should cultivate support amongst the Sunni world.

If Shadowbound is being honest about cultivating a Shiite rebellion, then the numbers given are understandable IF he could know about the dissent coming in the first place.

 

[RoboPig]

1- I had cultivated support amongst the army. Given how I phrased it, it's understandable if Yui misunderstood what I said. But as he didn't, this means the army would have more pro my ideas then the rest of the country (thus meaning at least some would support me against the revolters).

You do realize that most of the army has remained with you?

 

[Neverwonagame3]

You do realize that most of the army has remained with you?

That was when the government (since I didn't control it entirely even in teh update, I don't use "I") had backed down, according to Yui- I was arguing that even if it didn't, I should have kept military support.

That's also a point for why I shouldn't have backed down- I had the support of the army.

EDIT: Now I think about it, to be fair there is an argument for the government backing down. I told Yui, to make the Caliphate decision more in-character, that my ruler was under the delusion he would easily win the elections for Caliphate as he had restored the Caliphate.

IF this delusion was shattered, he could back down. But Yui knew perfectly well I (as in me as player) was trying to recreate the Caliphate.

 

[Stormbringer]

OOC: Mod's call is people oppose it, then people oppose it. The update says that if you just give up the idea everything will go back to normal. If you want to stick with it, then it will be hard, just like any major world-altering decision should be.

 

[Symphony D.]

1- I had cultivated support amongst the army. Given how I phrased it, it's understandable if Yui misunderstood what I said. But as he didn't, this means the army would have more pro my ideas then the rest of the country (thus meaning at least some would support me against the revolters).

OOC: Except the army is composed mostly of... Shi'a.

2- The QUOTE YOU GAVE said that the Shias do not universally accept the idea of Islamic jurors, which is a mere SUBSTITUTE for the Caliphate.

Your knowledge of Islam fails you. The Caliphate as a political office is a Sunni concept. It is not acknowledged at all by Shi'a. That is the fundamental difference between Sunni and Shi'a. Sunni recognize the Caliphate as originating with Abu Bakr. The Sunni recognize the Imamate as originating with the Twelve Imams. This is the root cause of the breach between the two. Given they are all dead no one can fill that position until the Mahdi arrives, which will itself herald what is analogous to Judgment Day. The Jurists are interim leaders designed to fill this vacuum, espoused by Khomeini. Your proposal is basically... heretical blasphemy in a theocratic state.

4- At the minimum, this should cultivate support amongst the Sunni world.

So... your mortal enemies then. The ones that you seek nuclear weapons to lord over, while doing a little jig and dance about Israel to appease the masses? It is immediately evident you did exactly zero research on this topic before initiating your plans.

 

[Neverwonagame3]

I did not do ZERO research before starting the plans- I did some, just not enough.

1- I said SOME of the army, not ALL. Some portion would stay with me.

2- What about the Fatamid Caliphate? Perhaps I didn't do enough research on the Iranian government, but that's not the same as not doing enough reseaerch on Iran.

4- That's one minor advantage, and a minor point. I was trying to make a reigme that would lead the Islamic world, so this was a necessary step.

EDIT: Anyway, your quote admits the Imanate idea is not universially accepted amongst Shiites.

 

[Shadowbound]

1- I said SOME of the army, not ALL. Some portion would stay with me.

Most did.

2- What about the Fatamid Caliphate? Perhaps I didn't do enough research on the Iranian government, but that's not the same as not doing enough reseaerch on Iran.

That occured almost a thousand years ago, in a completely different set of circumstances, with an entirely different branch of Shi'a Islam (Ismaili as opposed to Twelver). Research would tell you this.

4- That's one minor advantage, and a minor point. I was trying to make a reigme that would lead the Islamic world, so this was a necessary step.

Spoiler :

A little bit off from pointing out how bad your argument is, but rising nationalism in the Arab world would still regard Iran as an enemy, regardless of its religion, especially if it tried to exercise some kind of spiritual authority over them.

EDIT: Anyway, your quote admits the Imanate idea is not universially accepted amongst Shiites.

So why should the Caliphate be more popular? It has all the problems of the Imamate, except it also pisses off anyone that actually knows the purpose of the Imamate.

 

[Symphony D.]

Some portion would stay with me.

OOC: Some very small portion. He's being generous to you, actually. The Iranian Revolutionary Guards, at least--the elite of your military--should probably be among the first in line trying to kill you right now.

2- What about the Fatamid Caliphate?

They are also part of the chain of holders of the office of Caliph, as recognized by most Muslims, the only period in which the Shia Imamate and the Caliphate were united to any degree, excepting the Caliphate of Ali himself.
[...]
The dynasty was founded in 909 by ˤAbdullāh al-Mahdī Billah, who legitimised his claim through descent from Muhammad by way of his daughter Fātima as-Zahra and her husband ˤAlī ibn-Abī-Tālib, the first Shīˤa Imām, hence the name al-Fātimiyyūn "Fatimid".

Do you have a guy who is a 100% verifiable descendant of Muhammad? No? Then you fail at gaining the respect of the Shi'a.

4- That's one minor advantage, and a minor point. I was trying to make a reigme that would lead the Islamic world, so this was a necessary step.

1,400 years of on-again, off-again hate and animosity is never a "minor point."

EDIT: Anyway, your quote admits the Imanate idea is not universially accepted amongst Shiites.

However this idea, developed by the Marja (Ayatollah) Ruhollah Khomeini and established in Iran, is not universally accepted among Shi'as.

Jurism, which Khomeini developed, is not accepted by all Shi'a. Learn. To. Read.

 

[Stormbringer]

OOC: Hey guys, no need to be personal at all. You are debating a completely theoretical point of whether a new caliphate can be established in Iran. Just because you disagree does not mean that you should start being mean to each other.

 

[Yui108]

Er, the stats are updated?

France just reverted back to the control of Shadowbound.

Sorry, yes they are.

 

[Symphony D.]

OOC: Hey guys, no need to be personal at all. You are debating a completely theoretical point of whether a new caliphate can be established in Iran. Just because you disagree does not mean that you should start being mean to each other.

OOC: If that's directed at my last remark, I'm not being mean. It's a legitimate criticism of a failure to actually read and understand the presented material. The text is emphatically clear on the subject at anything more than the briefest of glances. If that's considered a "personal attack" then I believe our standards of political correctness here have gone way far over the line.

Otherwise, I don't see anything I said that can be remotely considered "personal."

 

[silver 2039]

@Yui can you answer my questions on the previous page?