Zero day DLC = disrespecting the customer

[Chalks]

It might also be a good idea to consider that civ4 is the only game that is as moddable as civ4.

Oh wow.

Well, I certainly can't argue with that.

 

[Rub'Rum]

I hate DLC, it's just a way to sell an expansion in 6 blocks of 10$ (60$) instead of one big pack for 30$. I can't believe people fall for it. If you're ready to pay 10$ for Babylon (let's not talk about Behind-the-scene stuff, the stuff that actually qualifies for what people call "Deluxe", aka NOT game content), then you should probably have shelled out 150$ for Warlods and Beyond the Sword.

So yeah, I hate DLC to start with. Releasing it for 10$ on day zero is taking it beyond my rage point. I may punch a hole in the wall right now.

Actually Firaxis, please just keep Babylon for yourself and don't release it. Instead, keep it and wait for one year or 1,5 years, then release it with 5-10 other civilizations and a few gameplay changes, call it an expansion pack and sell it at a non-rape price of 30$.

PS: I can just hope I resist the temptation. I buy several games every month and have never bought a deluxe edition unless it was on special or way after the release. Never. But civ is probably the most important game series for me and I'll probably be quite annoyed if I'm playing a Babylon-handicapped version of the game. A civilization influences a whole game, its presence, absence, personality, can have an impact on every game you play. It's not like that armor you wore once in Mass Effect or the Night goggles that came with your Modern warfare 2, or the little XP boost they gave you which quickly became obsolete in gameplay...

 

[deanej]

Oh wow.

Well, I certainly can't argue with that.

And if you had actually bothered to read the rest of my post, you would have realized what I meant. I can't think of a better way to put it. The point is, civ4 is the most moddable game in existence.

 

[Chalks]

And if you had actually bothered to read the rest of my post, you would have realized what I meant. I can't think of a better way to put it. The point is, civ4 is the most moddable game in existence.

Do you actually expect me to say anything other than "stop being so silly"?

Moderator Action: If you have nothing to add to a discussion, don't post. Flaming is not adding to a discussion.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[EdCase]

And if you had actually bothered to read the rest of my post, you would have realized what I meant. I can't think of a better way to put it. The point is, civ4 is the most moddable game in existence.

Half-life 2 and Unreal III (and that's just two off the top of my head) would very much like to differ

Also, to the guy who partially quoted me... Babylon as deluxe bonus messes with single player hall of fame comparisons ?
Really ?
You're serious ?
Please tell me no, as that is just ridiculous.

 

[Jeckel]

This is a false argument, because you don't OWN the game, at any time. You own the license to play one copy of the game. It's still the property of Firaxis. You are not allowed to sell the game files to others, or modify and sell it, or make it available to other people for free. Unlike a car, with which you can do whatever you damn well please, since you actually own it completely, wheels to roof.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to have just said that the whole used game industry is illegal. The are lots of small shops that sell used games, files, manual and box, all of which contain copyrighted materials. Game Stop is a good example of a chain that buys and sells used games and I've never heard of any charges against people that sell their games to Game Stop or buy used games from there.

The only people that think video game IP is some how different under the law then any other intellectual property are the video game industry and consumers that the industry has convinced of it.

When you buy a game, you may not own the IP to the content of the game, but you own the disc and the copy of the game that is on it. Just like a car you can trade it, loan it, sell it, break it, etc.

What do you own? The $0.33 DVD disk. The disk holder it came in. That's all, no more, no less. This is 2010. You can download the files to any game at any time. The only thing you pay for is the license, the CD-key.

According to your interpretation, you may own the disk-holder, the cardboard of the box, and the paper of the manual, but the images on the box and all images and text in the manual are covered by copyright (and most likely the EULA and maybe their own license to boot) just like the game data on the disk is.

Could you explain why you think the content of a video game disc has more rights under the law then any other product, and more specifically, why the IP of the game data would be handled any differently then the IP of the art in the manual or on the box?

Your ''leasing'' argument is also false, because you don't lease a game when you buy it online and download it. You get the exact same end product, minus the disc. Buying a game in a shop does not make it any more ''real'' than buying it online. You get the game files either way, whether you get them on a disk or not.

You got me there, the leasing metaphor is weak, I followed the car analogy to far. Let me put it another way.

In five, ten, fifteen years, when the online host, the publisher, or both stop supporting the game, who's game is more "real", those with a disc or those with an online "ownership" but no where to get the files?

 

[PieceOfMind]

deanej is right. There seriously is not much more freedom you could give modders than with civ4. If civ5 is to have "unprecedented modding capabilities" which to many means modding capabilities at least as good as civ4's, then they're going to have a tough job making that come true.

It's completely reasonable as a consumer to be cynical of very early marketing hype. A representative of 2K games has told the civfanatics community that details about modding are still being worked out. If you want to just believe, then yeah, civ5 modding will be better than ever. If you want to be pragmatic, which I suspect most modders are, you deal with the information available and not just the hype.

 

[player1 fanatic]

Note: The process between the final build of a game (i.e. when Firaxis finishes it and hands it over to the publisher) to the day of sale takes around three months. In this time, nothing can be done on the main game (since it's off to the presses already), but the studio can still work on stuff and then release it as DLC - and that's also the reason why games sometimes have patches around release day, the bugs were found in that gap.

Actually, it's around single month from "going gold" to release. Although there is usually a code lock some time earlier, but at that time game is still in development (bug hunting), and changes can happen.

 

[civ_king]

deanej is right. There seriously is not much more freedom you could give modders than with civ4. If civ5 is to have "unprecedented modding capabilities" which to many means modding capabilities at least as good as civ4's, then they're going to have a tough job making that come true.

It's completely reasonable as a consumer to be cynical of very early marketing hype. A representative of 2K games has told the civfanatics community that details about modding are still being worked out. If you want to just believe, then yeah, civ5 modding will be better than ever. If you want to be pragmatic, which I suspect most modders are, you deal with the information available and not just the hype.

unlock the EXE

 

[tom2050]

I have to agree though... very sleezy move. Digital Download is much less expensive for the company than having to put an actual product together. They are saving alot of money by persuading people to go digital. And if they are charging $10 more for hardly any additional content, then it is pretty pathetic...

If anything, the digital download package should be $10 cheaper.

But not unexpected... Firaxis was always a respectable company in my eyes for a long time until their 2K publisher entered the picture. Now everyone sees the disgusting UBISOFT-like Firaxis emerging, and the majority are trying desperately to justify Firaxis' evil, corrupt and deceitful practices in any way they can; in a vain attempt to fool themselves out of believing it is actually happening to the gaming company and game they hold dear to their heart.

 

[Sareln]

I have to agree though... very sleezy move. Digital Download is much less expensive for the company than having to put an actual product together. They are saving alot of money by persuading people to go digital. And if they are charging $10 more for hardly any additional content, then it is pretty pathetic...

If anything, the digital download package should be $10 cheaper.

Something to keep in mind:
The price of a game from a digital distributor is not determined in a vacuum.


In other discussions of digital distribution and price-points, I've heard that digital distributors often have to match price to the physical copies on the shelves of the big box stores. This is the price paid so that the big box stores will carry the game on their shelves, basically a non-compete. This is also why digital distributors offer humongous sales from time to time, since that gets around such contractual issues. We, as internet-saavy and dedicated fans, tend to underestimate how many units are still sold at retail, as opposed to digitally; but it's important to keep in mind that we are probably not the huge majority we'd like to think we are.

It could be the publisher going: "oh yeah, they're used to paying 60 USD for their console games, so forking over the same amount for my AAA PC release is no problem!", but I think it is more likely that it is the result of publisher negotiations with multiple distributors, who each have varying amounts of leverage based on projected unit sales.

edit: added "something to keep in mind:"

 

[phungus420]

^
The complaint in this thread has nothing to do with price, or even Steam in general. In fact, I clearly state in the OP that Steam is probably one of the least intrusive DRMs around, and so while I personally would prefer a hard copy, I don't fault Firaxis for going this route.

The issue at hand is Firaxis removing content to package as day zero DLC. Once a firm goes this route they are de facto stating they are only interested in short term profit; the customer and long term viability be damned. Firaxis can't maintain a vibrant community like it does now with modding, or maintain high sales 5 years post release with such an attitude. I fully expect this DLC bilking to rake in some cash over the short term, but by destroying the modding community (which unstandardizable mini DLC components like Babylon must do in order to not be destroyed by competition from mods) Take 2 and Firaxis are ensuring that Civ5 will not continue on years later as a top seller. Keep in mind mods and the general community (word of mouth etc), help spur on sales of full expansion packs. DLC removes any milestone standard from which to work from, and takes away any community based incentives that spur XP purchases. This move is all about short term profits at the expense of long term potential; it will also wreck havok with modding. Imagine if you will that Civ4 had 20 $5 DLCs, all with major locks on the DLC assets so that modders were forbidden to work with it. In such an environment how would succession games, awesome mods like the BUG mod, or even a coherent strategies and tips forum be viable? The answer is it wol't and that's what we are seeing being done here.

 

[civ_king]

^
The complaint in this thread has nothing to do with price, or even Steam in general. In fact, I clearly state in the OP that Steam is probably one of the least intrusive DRMs around, and so while I personally would prefer a hard copy, I don't fault Firaxis for going this route.

The issue at hand is Firaxis removing content to package as day zero DLC. Once a firm goes this route they are de facto stating they are only interested in short term profit; the customer and long term viability be damned. Firaxis can't maintain a vibrant community like it does now with modding, or maintain high sales 5 years post release with such an attitude. I fully expect this DLC bilking to rake in some cash over the short term, but by destroying the modding community (which unstandardizable mini DLC components like Babylon must do in order to not be destroyed by competition from mods) Take 2 and Firaxis are ensuring that Civ5 will not continue on years later as a top seller. Keep in mind mods and the general community (word of mouth etc), help spur on sales of full expansion packs. DLC removes any milestone standard from which to work from, and takes away any community based incentives that spur XP purchases. This move is all about short term profits at the expense of long term potential; it will also wreck havok with modding. Imagine if you will that Civ4 had 20 $5 DLCs, all with major locks on the DLC assets so that modders were forbidden to work with it. In such an environment how would succession games, awesome mods like the BUG mod, or even a coherent strategies and tips forum be viable? The answer is it wol't and that's what we are seeing being done here.

I went looking through Steam last night and I'm pretty sure I saw the option to burn the game to disc

 

[arthat]

This is ridiculous.

If you're so poor you can't afford the extra dough you shouldn't even be spending money on videogames.

The nerve some people have. If DLC sucked then it would have faded away by now. The reason it is around is due to demand. If it is released in 1 month or in 1 year is irrelevant.

If you want it pay up. Otherwise, keep quiet, buy the regular stuff and forget DLC even exists.

 

[Rub'Rum]

This is ridiculous.

If you're so poor you can't afford the extra dough you shouldn't even be spending money on videogames.

The nerve some people have. If DLC sucked then it would have faded away by now. The reason it is around is due to demand. If it is released in 1 month or in 1 year is irrelevant.

If you want it pay up. Otherwise, keep quiet, buy the regular stuff and forget DLC even exists.

I don't see the point of vehemently defending minimal content for offensive prices like that. What do you gain by doing that? I hope you still have money to buy the lube.

DLC sucks, it hasn't disappeared because people can't be bothered to remember the service they used to have.

Anyone remember when we used to have free meals on the plane?

I have money to pay up, but the reason I have money to pay up is because I am more critical than that towards scam.

 

[snowlyon]

Something to keep in mind:
... We, as internet-saavy and dedicated fans, tend to underestimate how many units are still sold at retail, as opposed to digitally; but it's important to keep in mind that we are probably not the huge majority we'd like to think we are.

so very true and I personally think a good number of people here tend to forget or ignore...~

 

[arthat]

I don't see the point of vehemently defending minimal content for offensive prices like that. What do you gain by doing that? I hope you still have money to buy the lube.

DLC sucks, it hasn't disappeared because people can't be bothered to remember the service they used to have.

Anyone remember when we used to have free meals on the plane?

I have money to pay up, but the reason I have money to pay up is because I am more critical than that towards scam.

I did not defend minimal content for offensive prices.

I said if you want DLC, pay for it. As in, if you want those potatoes, pay for them. Hard to grasp?

I didn't say I wanted or needed DLC either but whatever.

This is DLC. It is a luxury. You want it, you pony up.

 

[deanej]

This debate isn't about money anyways. It's about not everyone having the same game anymore.

 

[Rub'Rum]

I did not defend minimal content for offensive prices.

I said if you want DLC, pay for it. As in, if you want those potatoes, pay for them. Hard to grasp?

I didn't say I wanted or needed DLC either but whatever.

This is DLC. It is a luxury. You want it, you pony up.

A map, a shiny metal box, a soundtrack, behind-the-scene, early access to stuff, etc. That is luxury. Game content (especially on release day), not a luxury. Part of the game. I'd say "hard to grasp?" or "what nerve you have", but that'd be a really obnoxious "my opinion is fact" attitude wouldn't it.

 

[Sephi]

who knows, maybe that Babylon stuff is simply a mini mod that you need to load via a menu option.

Civ4 is definetly not the most moddable game. Any open source game is more moddable . Also Mods like WoC or BUG add a lot of moddability, so there is still potential.