Zero day DLC = disrespecting the customer

[Avs]

I think that, here on Page 17, people stopped caring about the thoughts, opinions, and speculations of others...but here's what I'm thinking:

I wager that Civ5's first expansion will provide us with the extra civ and maps the deluxe edition grants, just as BTS gave us all the enhancements introduced in Warlords that were still relevant to the 'main game.' Didn't get Babylon and the Cradle whatsits? No problem. In fact, in the interests of balance, Babylon as a whole will probably be playtested and balanced conservatively, at the moderately comfortable risk of being a 'weak civ'.

Or, if you want a Valve/Steam-flavored example, look at Left 4 Dead 2, which had pre-order bonuses (such as, and possibly limited to, the extra weapon in-game) but, if you didn't have them, gave them to you along with the first bonus campaign, The Passing. A "head start" for early adopters in a sense.

I'd hate to use the L4D2 example because Valve isnt 2k Fraxis or whatever. That being said, Beyond the Sword did give you everything the Warlords had, so that in the end most of us who had BTS ended up with everything from the beginning. Speaking to that point, it is kind of like a head start. We all know 1 civilization isnt going to make a big difference, but it still irks people that they aren't getting the "full package" sort of speak.

It's like buying an apple pie, but not getting a cherry on top or whipped cream. The pie isn't perfect, but it'll still taste good. And of course, most players will play a different civ regardless of whether they have it or not. Anyways, this is all psychological. If their marketing department really knows their stuff, they'll bombard us with new information closer towards the release month which will render this discussion moot. Because we have nothing else to talk about (anyone watch Entertainment Tonight or TMZ??? Same thing there), we're stuck talking about these things; the forums has certainly lost some interest in this debate, as its been talked over so much now.

 

[Gerk]

That's very true.

I understand the debate's a little tired, but I just signed up here (after lurking around for about 2 years, particularly in the mod forums) and wanted to chime in with that.

Deluxe editions are something of a big thing these days, and with the game going chiefly digital here I think Firaxis was trying to shore up some good ideas that could make such a purchase practical, since they can't just "pack in" a soundtrack CD, poster sized tech-tree, whatever like one could in a box. Likewise, the soundtrack for the game pretty much already exists in the files and such a "poster," in pdf format, would become common property on day one.

So I guess in essence that's one of the few things they could do that could keep the purchase special. Of course, this doesn't seem to stop the motivation of certain self-proclaimed fans of the series who want to mod the game and include Babylon for free, undermining the very concept of the deluxe edition.

Okay I think that's enough. X=

 

[deanej]

Then they shouldn't have made it chiefly digital or they shouldn't have done a deluxe edition. When will game companies figure out that denying the regular customers the full package is a bad thing?

 

[Duuk]

Then they shouldn't have made it chiefly digital or they shouldn't have done a deluxe edition. When will game companies figure out that denying the regular customers the full package is a bad thing?

No it's not.

 

[Shurdus]

Then they shouldn't have made it chiefly digital or they shouldn't have done a deluxe edition. When will game companies figure out that denying the regular customers the full package is a bad thing?

They do not deny you the full thing, you choose not to buy it because you prefer to act all high and mighty. The option to get it is there for you just like it is for anyone else.

 

[PieceOfMind]

Regardless of all that, it still splits the player base into two parts. Almost any way you look at it, that's not likely to be a good thing. It just means 2K and Firaxis and especially Valve make some more bucks in the short term.

 

[Shurdus]

Regardless of all that, it still splits the player base into two parts. Almost any way you look at it, that's not likely to be a good thing. It just means 2K and Firaxis and especially Valve make some more bucks in the short term.

We do not know how the added civ will work in multiplayer and such. Maybe they even accounted for it in terms of modding capabilities. I am no modder or anything, but I would assume it is possible to code the game in a way that allows for players with either edition to play against each other. Also I would assume that with a little effort, they can make the extra civ for some people a non-factor in modding.

Given the fact that they can easely foresee these things being an issue and the fact that they market civ5 as the most moddable civ yet, I would assume they provide measures to make sure there is as little hindrance from having different versions as is possible.

Whatever may be of that, it is way too early to get worked up over something that might very well be a non-issue. We will see if the community is split up. I for one trust the people working on this game enough to assume that they will do whatever we can possible expect them to do to keep the community together. They need a thriving community because it is a major selling point.

 

[PieceOfMind]

Shurdus, I am not even implying that the two versions will not work together. Even something as simple as some players having something while others do not is an arbitrary division at this point. If the game is very community friendly etc., the fact there are two versions at release will not be helping that fact. It will depend on the others things, as you suggest.

Just imagine now, all the forum discussions of people with Babylon talking with those who don't have Babylon. It doesn't bring people closer together. Even releasing expansions will split the player base, if you want to take my comments to the logical extreme. At least with expansions though most people look upon them more favourably.

 

[Rub'Rum]

At least with expansions though most people look upon them more favourably.

Because they contain about 15 times the content for like 2-3 times the price.

 

[deanej]

I guess all you people saying this isn't a bad thing aren't completists. Someone paying for civ5 buys the game with the expectation of getting the FULL game. Now you have to pay $10 extra for that. Deluxe versions are supposed to have things that DON'T AFFECT THE GAME AT ALL. Call me old, but this time old is better.

Firaxis may not care that it creates problems for modding. While civ4's model was creating mods for public consumption, from what we've seen, civ5 seems to be based on a model of creating mods for personal use only, as shown by the story of the designer's 12 year old creating maps. Sure, there's a modding exchange, but this doesn't mean the primary focus won't be on personal use. Only a few mods (such as RFC) will have major problems with this anyways, assuming modular loading works for civs and leaders.

As for people saying "serves you right for not getting the Deluxe version", consider this: were I to buy civ5, I would be getting the Deluxe version. I was never sure if I would be buying civ5 (I don't like what I've heard so far about its gameplay), but steam only and zero day DLC has pushed me into the no crowd. But this isn't about weather or not I would have Babylon. It's about the community. And it's great to be optimistic, but I prefer Murphy's Law to optimism.

 

[Shurdus]

I guess all you people saying this isn't a bad thing aren't completists. Someone paying for civ5 buys the game with the expectation of getting the FULL game. Now you have to pay $10 extra for that. Deluxe versions are supposed to have things that DON'T AFFECT THE GAME AT ALL. Call me old, but this time old is better.

Firaxis may not care that it creates problems for modding. While civ4's model was creating mods for public consumption, from what we've seen, civ5 seems to be based on a model of creating mods for personal use only, as shown by the story of the designer's 12 year old creating maps. Sure, there's a modding exchange, but this doesn't mean the primary focus won't be on personal use. Only a few mods (such as RFC) will have major problems with this anyways, assuming modular loading works for civs and leaders.

As for people saying "serves you right for not getting the Deluxe version", consider this: were I to buy civ5, I would be getting the Deluxe version. I was never sure if I would be buying civ5 (I don't like what I've heard so far about its gameplay), but steam only and zero day DLC has pushed me into the no crowd. But this isn't about weather or not I would have Babylon. It's about the community. And it's great to be optimistic, but I prefer Murphy's Law to optimism.

Thanks for sharing, old fasioned guy!

Call me modern then, but I feel like having the normal boxed version is indeed the complete game, because I will not notice Babylon missing. there is not a huge gap in the game where Babylon used to be, there is just no chance of Babylon popping up. To me that means that this normal version does indeed not affect gameplay in any way, and that I can choose the deluxe edition if I want the icing on the cake.

I am just not feeling this whole 'not getting the complete version' vibe. You should get what you pay for. You are not scammed into buying any version, you can pick whichever version you want. You get what you order, and that is that. Order the complete version if you want, or the other one. No one forces you to do anything, and if you feel forced then maybe that is entirely in your head.

 

[Greybriar]

....I am just not feeling this whole 'not getting the complete version' vibe. You should get what you pay for. You are not scammed into buying any version, you can pick whichever version you want. You get what you order, and that is that. Order the complete version if you want, or the other one. No one forces you to do anything, and if you feel forced then maybe that is entirely in your head.

As has been mentioned:

Shurdus....Just imagine now, all the forum discussions of people with Babylon talking with those who don't have Babylon. It doesn't bring people closer together. Even releasing expansions will split the player base, if you want to take my comments to the logical extreme. At least with expansions though most people look upon them more favourably.

Corporate greed vs. the player base.

 

[civ_king]

how do we know it wont be made between when the game goes out to manufacturers and release date, then you are getting the full game when you buy it boxed

 

[Shurdus]

As has been mentioned:



Corporate greed vs. the player base.

And this somehow disqualifies my sentiments?

Even if there will be people who will be concerned about this, I am not feeling those concerns. I cannot see a split in the community over something like an added civ. If I see a post appearing, there is no way I will wonder if that person has the added civ, and if I know he does, it only matters for certain posts. There is plenty of room left on the boards for other discussions, ans a lot of the discussion is still applicable in general, added civ or not.

Also a lot of the posters on these boards do not participate in the discussions that I participate in right now, because a lot of people dwell in the several subforums that I never even heard of. The comunity is alreay split into countless different little groups. Each group can survive very well.

Also civ5 will draw a lot of new gamers to the community, so even if the community is split there will be more people overall rather than hardcore fans only. This might mean that even if there will be two camps, both camps might be bigger than the whole camp of people that I am in.

 

[Thyrwyn]

If you buy Civ V you will get the FULL game; if you buy the deluxe edition, you get a bonus

 

[Rusty Edge]

Whatever may be of that, it is way too early to get worked up over something that might very well be a non-issue.

I hope you are, in fact, correct.

I figure that it will be too late to get worked up in hopes of maintaining our status quo after V goes gold. It wasn't so long ago that Sid himself said that iif there were to be a Civ V we would have to "make some noise". I want to be sure they are well aware of our concerns while they can still address them.

 

[deanej]

I guess you guys don't consider the civs to be a part of the game then. There are those of us that do.

I imagine you guys don't care about modding, either.

 

[Yakk]

I guess you guys don't consider the civs to be a part of the game then. There are those of us that do.

I consider civs to be part of a game. I consider manuals to be part of the game. I don't consider the 19th civ to be a core part of the game, nor do I consider manuals to be a core part of the game.

I imagine you guys don't care about modding, either.

I care about modding. In fact, I'm hoping that writing the Babylon 19th civ mod means that they will have a reason to QA that their civilisations are fully modular.

In Civ4, civilisations are mostly modular, but there is a problem with some of the graphics resources. Fixing that is a good thing. If done, it brings us that much closer to being able to add in/remove mods "a la carte" without messing around with files.

 

[deanej]

There are those of us that consider everything but mods to be the core game.

I've never been a big fan of modular loading, in part because add-a-[insert thing here] type mods are not my taste. I greatly prefer more extensive, monolithic mods.

 

[Thyrwyn]

I consider civs to be part of a game. I consider manuals to be part of the game. I don't consider the 19th civ to be a core part of the game, nor do I consider manuals to be a core part of the game.

I care about modding. In fact, I'm hoping that writing the Babylon 19th civ mod means that they will have a reason to QA that their civilizations are fully modular.

My thoughts exactly. There is no reason civs could not be modular. In fact, it occurred to me that they have actually already implied that they are : We know that each civ/leader will have several different "flavors", right? We also know that each time each civ/leader appears in a game those flavors will vary by +/- 2. Since it always easier to look up one value than two, it follows that only the final value would be stored in each game's save data - that way the exe only has to look one place to figure out how a given civ will behave. This means that once the game begins, the core data for each civ never has to be referenced during the course of a game.

I am guessing that the game takes an inventory or the available civs at the start of a game, chooses which civs will be included, and stores the necessary data in one location. The only civ specific thing that would need to be referenced would be the civ specific graphics.