ZF1 - Zed's Training Day Game

See, this is what I meant! I know too much...to reveal it could bring down the Government...although if we're religious, we'd have a new Government the next turn ;)

One thing I do disagree with is building Warriors. At this point, we're not under serious threat, so I'd rather spend the extra turns on spearmen...but that's more or less a judgement call.
 
Cancelling worker action: once it's started, it's usually better to let it finish (unless it's going to take for-eh-vah and you really need something else done, or you really need a different improvement on that specific tile.) Assuming it was a regular grassland, we have lots of other ones we could use (and mine) instead, and we could eventually have used an irrigated square once we get out of Despotism; now we will just have to redo it later. If it was a bonus grassland that was being irrigated, though, then I agree with your decision, as those are priority tiles to use and we want to get the most out of them now that we can.

I would have just built the settler first off and skipped the warrior. We can probably get away with unescorted settlers for a little while yet -- at least until we get a few spears built. We need to stop building warriors and start with spearmen.

Got it.
 
Cancelling worker action: If the worker had been even one turn closer to completion, I would have let him go if it was regular grassland. I don't remember right now if that was a bonus grassland or not (I'm at work).

As to warrior vs. spearman, you're right. If I'd been thinking, it would have been a spearman. And if I had really been thinking, I would have gone straight to settler. One of those after-the-fact "D'oh!" moments. :D
 
ChrTh,

There is definately a line that can be drawn between the tools that the game intentionally provides (even if they don't make sense, in that there's no logical reason why you should have access to that information) and actions that you can take outside the game session, such as save & reload. I can't speak for the rest of the SGs on the thread, but at least for the RBD games we avoid the latter as much as possible. We also avoid exploits like those you mention (war-peace-war) and anything else that seems questionable -- we enforce an in-game code of ethics. So, if you are interested in playing in future RBD SGs, better get used to it. :)

If you HAD posted the results of your shadow turn before Padma, I would have rounded on you for it (gently.) I would have been much more interested in the fact that you would have broken my stated rules (desgined to prevent shadow turn results from influencing real turn results) than I would have been in the actual results that you observed, and in fact I would probably have disallowed the movement of Grey dot from its current site on that basis. Now, you didn't post your results, so all is well, and if we want to move Grey dot we can, but the point is I won't tolerate cheating here any more than I would in an RBD game -- though I probably won't enforce the entire code of ethics, but just make note of it if you guys breach it. I don't think you actually planned to cheat, but because of your comments, it seemed like you might need a friendly reminder. ;)

As far as training day games being your idea goes, that only takes you so far. In Real Life, about all having the original idea gets you is your name on the credits list, and maybe some royalties, IF you patent it. What other people do with your idea is beyond the scope of your control, so if you want to make use of their version, you may have to adapt your concept a little. I just mention it because you seem a bit hung up on the whole "this was my idea" thing -- it's come up a couple times now.

Anyway, if you feel that shadowing would provide too much temptation to let the results of the shadowing influence your judgement, then by all means don't. :)
 
I wouldn't really consider blue dot to be a top priority. If Grey dot does its job, the Iroquois wont be able to get in that way. It may need a couple extra spearmen to form a human wall to prevent them from bypassing the city, but if we've got a defender there it should discourage the AI from taking a settler past the city.
 
BTW, I just want to give everybody a head's up: watch Sullla's game. They're in a iffy situation over there (between two Civs) that we (so far) don't have, so it'll be educational to see how they respond to it.
 
BTW, I want to apologize for my unnecessarily harsh and hurt tone the last few days...I should've been nicer.
:suicide:

I'll blame the fact that my family was visiting...yeah, that's the ticket :satan:

I just hope Sirian doesn't hate me now :suicide:

EDIT: And now I'm in both Sirian's and Arathorn's Game! I'm a horrible horrible person :cry:

But at least I'm in their games :)
 
Quick note: I used to feel about the same as LKendter in regard to veteran troops. In Civ2 I wouldn't build anything else, and I carried that right on over to Civ3.

Well not any more. No time to waste waiting around on perfect troops on Deity level. You need bodies, warm bodies with weapons, any kind of weapons, any pathetically untrained shoddy trippin over themselves "soldiers". You can only use cardboard cutouts for so long, you know. :)

My games now typically involve regular warriors in almost all my cities, or a couple regular spears, unless the civ is Militaristic, in which case SOME of those warriors will be veteran. :lol: And I'll end up with vet spears in border towns a good bit sooner.

Since I have taken this approach, I get surprise attacked considerably less than I used to, and I've ended up in a whole lot fewer pickles in the earlier parts of emperor and deity games. I quit messing around with the idea of "every troop I have should be a winner if he gets into combat". Bah. Much better not even to get into the combat in the first place!

I know this is counterintuitive: that building crappier troops HELPS improve results, but I have found it to be indisputably true in my own games. And generally, most of these troops find a use as military police or as extra bodies in pressured cities, so it's almost unheard of that any of them go to waste.

Units have more functions than actual dice-rolling in combat. That's the key to this idea. Having more units and having them sooner, or spending less of your precious early days on unit building and more on workers, settlers, or infrastructure, and catch up on the units later, is working out for me. I end up with more total units, which is some drain on my economy, but less so than struggling to fight off Emperor or Deity strength AI's who have designs on my land. Of course, this is not with any ancient warfare gambits happening. If you actually intend to attack anybody early on, better bring veteran troops and something stronger than 1/1/1 axe warriors.


- Sirian


EDIT: ChrTh, I didn't see any of your posts since my last post, so if you had anything unkind to say, I missed it and I'm not worried about it. :) On with the show.
 
Well, in this instance we are militaristic, so it doesn't cost us much to get barracks before we start cranking troops. :) You're right that it's not a one-size-fits-all answer, though.
 
Preturn: Padma, looks like you brought some of our warriors back from exploring and onto MP duty. Problem is, we need explorers more than MP right now -- happiness can be managed with lux tax since pumping out settlers & workers will keep our pop size down, and we know barbs are only set to Roaming (i.e. not many of them.) Explorers on the other hand, give us the chance of finding goody huts and contact with other civs, the latter of which is important not just for trading purposes but also to reduce research costs. Send out the scouts! I do keep one warrior back for MP.

Domestic: Warning, dotmaps subject to change without notice. :) Discovery of Iron leads to a slight alteration in plans. We found Nanking to grab the iron, and Canton to help speed up growth. Note, Canton is where it is so it will eventually have a meaningful amount of production; better to have 1 useful city and 1 fishing village, than 2 fishing villages. We also build a couple more workers and start on another worker in Canton and 2 more settlers in Dockonda Bay and Beijing. Shanghai is a spear factory and should remain so for quite some time to come. At some point we will need to start considering some culture, but with 40-shield whips gone and with us still in mad-land-grab mode, I don't see it happening all that soon.

One thing that many players neglect, even experienced ones, is workers. We should as a rule of thumb try to always have at least one worker per city, except once you get a rail net built and start going on a rampage, at which time you don't need as many. Generally worker production doesn't much happen until cities reach size 6 and people start siphoning off workers since the cities can't grow anymore anyway before aqueducts are built, if then. But, having a few early workers around is critical to getting a good productive start. We are very fortunate to get such a food-rich start, as it will allow us to build both a lot of settlers and a lot of workers, so we can both grab land and do something useful with it. :)

Foreign: One of our scouts spotted and killed not one but 2 barb camps, netting us 50 gold and promoting him to elite. We also have a warrior fortified at the site of a future city (new Grey Dot) and also blocking off access to our Blue/Yellow dot areas. Nanking is building a regular warrior right now while it grows, to increase our body count and to serve as an extra blocker in case the Iros want to send a settler our way. We could change that to a temple if desired to expand our borders instead (not needed to hook up the iron.)

Research: We finished Alphabet and started on Writing. It looks like the Iros researched it before us, as the cost lowered while we were researching it. The Wheel would take us 7 turns to research; I'd prefer to wait until it only takes 4, either because our beaker output increases due to having more/bigger cities, or due to contacting another civ that has it.

Guys, PLEASE include a map (in zoomed out more, use Z) when posting official turn results. This makes it much easier to see what's going on and provide good feedback.

Save File

Revised dotmap:

ZF1-china-1500bc.jpg

With this dotmap, new Grey Dot is still on fresh water (as is Nanking.) Yellow and new Green Dots are fishing villages, so are low priority. Blue dot is also low priority but higher than yellow or green. Orange Dot now has a reasonable amount of land, including the cattle, but needs irrigation to be brought around the hills, so needs worker help, as does Pink Dot. Those are still pretty high priority sites due to proximity to the capital, though we probably want to get Grey dot online first to get the Ivory connected and to prevent the Iros from getting any ideas about heading towards Blue dot. Of course we also want to get some settlers out to the gems, spices, and dyes eventually, and we have other dots to found as well, plus we need our scouts to reveal more of the map north of us so we can figure out where the best spot to build our FP is... as you can see there's a lot of land to be grabbed. Fortunately we're in a good position to do just that. :)
 
Here's something else I ought to have pointed out:

From Sirian's PROD Shadow thread...

3650BC: hastening future settlements with roads? How about hastening the production of settlers with some mines here?? The first priority is to improve the land at the capital. Your settlers will be done sooner, so they'll be as far along as they would be with extra roads anyway! If it can wait, it SHOULD wait, and roads to other settlements can wait. Production is being LOST because the capital does not have fully improved Good Tiles to be working.
Click to expand...

I noticed we have been building lots of roads to our new cities. Roads are fine, except when they mean we're not improving our lands. Padma had both our workers building a road to what wound up to be Nanking, while Shanghai had just one mined tile with which to build spears, and Dockonda Bay just one mined tile with which to build settlers... not a good plan. Hence why it's important not to neglect workers early on -- there's always more good things to do than workers to do them with, and sometimes it can be a bit tricky to juggle which is most important right now.

Note, this does not mean to obsessively improve land around your cities (even your capital) at the expense of other projects... there is an inherent balance to be made when you consider how many improved tiles your cities can actually use. If Beijing, Dockonda Bay, and Canton are going to be popping settlers and workers off regularly for the next little while, they probably only need about 4 or 5 improved tiles each (though they should be the best such tiles available, especially bonus grasslands) until such time as they are ready to slow down on the settler push and start building infrastructure, and hence start growing. Shanghai we'll probably allow to grow to 6 (and build workers when we hit size 6 or 7) so we need more improved tiles there. Once we've met these targets, however, our workers in the capital region can move on to other cities... though we should still keep a couple back to gradually improve stuff in preparation for the day when we decide our expansion phase is just about over and we're ready to start allowing some of our cities to seriously grow.
 
Bringing warrior back for MP: I brought back ONE (1) warrior to Beijing. He was in the hills just outside the city, well away from undiscovered lands. And yes, I did forget barbs were only 'roaming'. :blush:

As to your excellent point about workers making necessary improvements around core cities before roading out to unsettled ones, point taken. :) (That's why these are 'Training Games'. :D
 
Just wanted to let y'all know that I'll be grabbing the game tonight.
I plan on looking at it around 7 EST, posting my thoughts (and thus opening it up for debate) and then playing around 9-10. :)
 
Zed-F...

I am wholly confused by the Orange Dot city location. The borders don't match the dot...what's the deal?
 
You're right, borders are wrong for Orange dot. However, Purple dot is still in the right place to (a) grab gems, (b) be on the river, and (c) be on the coast, which were the primary determinants of its location. Likewise, Pink dot is also in the right place to give Orange the maximum opportunity to grab useful land squares.

Options:
- Leave Orange dot where it is and alter borders to match. Pros: least overlap with Pink. Gets 4 more sea squares, with possible bonus resources in unexplored fog just offshore. Total tiles in city radius = 17 unshared, 3 shared, 2 of which are shared sea/coast with Purple. Forest available before temple for fast early production. Cons: gives up a hill to waste near Beijing in addition to the already-marked wasted mountain. Total land/sea tiles in radius = 10/10.
- Move Orange dot one tile SW onto forest. Pros: Don't waste the hill near Beijing, and recovers wasted mountain. Total land/sea tiles in radius = 15/5. Second bonus grassland available before temple for faster early growth. Cons: More overlap with Pink, when both cities are fairly close to our capital. Total tiles in city radius = 16 unshared, 4 shared, all of which are shared land tiles with Pink. Pink already has 3 overlap tiles with other cities.

Looks like a close call to me. You decide! I'm marginally in favour of leaving Orange Dot where it is and adjusting the borders, just because Pink already has enough overlap without compounding it by having Orange potentially poaching 4 tiles as well -- long-term, we want the cities closest to our capital to be as large as possible, and too much competition for space precludes that. Also it's worthwhile to note Pink is on a river and could be needing those extra tiles in the not-too-distant future.
 
Turn 0 -- 1500 BC
I take stock of my life to see where it is I am heading...and it's to Zed-F's Training Day Game! Life is good...
I'm confused by the Worker irrigating N of Canton...is his goal the Wheat? I check the thread...no answer. Oh well, I'll continue him on his road to Wheat...
Dockonda Bay is going to grow 2 turns before settler is built...I'm sensing Rioting. I'll watch DB and Beijing closely.
Grey Dot is obviously the next city to build...but I seem to have been given some leeway in the next location...to be honest, I'm leaning towards settling *RED* dot as a further way to block the Iriqouis...but since I have about 6 turns to decide, I'll put off the decision.
The rates are managed nicely, so I leave them be.

Turn 1 -- 1475 BC
Our cultural influence expands!
Worker finishes Road to Canton...I move him SE to irrigate (btw, if this is :smoke:, I blame my predecessor ;) )
Worker S of Shanghai begins Mine.
I contact Japanese I think I contact Japanese I really think so...Warrior to the N sees a Japanese Warrior exploring. I make contact...
Japan is cautious, their military is equal to ours, but they have more culture and are more advanced...I check to see what they have...EEP...they have every Tech we have. They have Pottery, the Wheel, and Writing. I'm tempted to trade for one...but I don't. I had checked the science rates earlier, and it looks like the other Techs should be easy to grab. They DO have Communication with the Persians(!), the Babylonians, and the English...but I can't trade for it. I end the conversation.

Turn 2 -- 1450 BC
Canton produces Worker. I order up...Worker.
MOW
Some more map expored, not much learned.

Turn 3 -- 1425 BC
We learn Writing. I order up Pottery (4 turns)...I drop the Science rate to 50% to 7 Gold per turn while still getting Pottery in 4. My goal, for those not following the Sirian Training Day Game, is to build a Granary in Shanghai (Beijing doesn't need one as it has a Wheat to work)
Beijing finishes Settler, orders up Settler. Settler heads to Gray Dot.
Our exploring Warriors find the Japanese Border.

Turn 4 -- 1400 BC
ZzzZzz

Turn 5 -- 1375 BC
Shanghai produces Spearman, I order up Settler. Spearman will be sent to Grey Dot, and then I'll move the Warrior from there to occupy another Dot.
Nanking builds Warrior, to be used for blocking Settler/Spear sets. I order up a Worker, which will be done when Nanking grows.
Nanking is taking a production hit from corruption; can't get above 2 shields unless I stop growth entirely.
I almost forget to check Dockonda Bay! But I remember in time. I was correct, they were preparing to Riot. I raise Luxuries to 10%, and I am actually able to drop Science to 30% and still finish Pottery in 2 (net 10 Gold per turn).
There is a lot of jungle on this map...I think we got 'Wet', what do you think? :)

Turn 6 -- 1350 BC
Tuskany Bay is built! I order up a Warrior.
With the Ivory on line, I drop Luxuries back down to zero. We're making a tidy 14 gpt.

Turn 7 -- 1325 BC
With Pottery done, I order up the Wheel (I can get it in 5 turns at +1 gold).
Dockonda Bay finishes Settler...I order up Settler (my successor may want to change this to Barracks or something else). I decide to head him towards Blue Dot...I know it's probably not the same priority as some of the other dots, but with other Settlers getting ready to come on line in the next few turns, I'd rather not have the Settler travel miles out of his way.
I decide to do the Math: it'll cost us 80 Gold to get The Wheel...I think I can get it for less. I talk to Japan...and I get it for...51 Gold. I order up Philosophy (with a goal of Republic)...it'll take 8 turns with +1 gpt.
Now for the horses:
There are a Wealth of them! I count 4: 1 between Nanking and Tuskany Bay (will be grabbed when either expands)...1 which will be in Dockonda Bay when it expands...so we have 2 (excellent!). I see 1 in the hills/jungle NW of Nanking...and I see one...in Iriquois Borders! DOH!...but it's not connected yet. However, one of the Civs out there is deprived.

Turn 8 -- 1300 BC
ZzzZzz...although I do decide to change Tuskany Bay to Barracks...I think if we get into a War with the Iriquois, this will be one of the front line cities (I even considered Walls). My successor can change this if he wants to.

Turn 9 -- 1275 BC
ZzzZzz
Whoops, I accidentally moved a Warrior next to a Japanese city (lousy jungle obscuring border)...hopefully Tokuwanda won't hate me too much. I also discover an Iriquois more N than I would expect.

Turn 10 -- 1250 BC
We have connected the Iron!
Canton builds another worker. I order up Barracks, but feel free to Veto (it was a 'no idea what to build at this juncture' selection).
I have discovered a Barbarian near Nanking..we should send out a Warrior to investigate.


Settler is one move away from Blue Dot. Worker is about to put Road on Horse. We may want to encourage either Nanking or Tuskany Bay to build a Temple.

Here's the save:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/ZF1-china-1250bc.zip

And here's the map:
zf1250.jpg
 
A couple quick comments, more details later.

- A city provides a thru-way for irrigation if it's built on irrigable terrain (i.e. not hills or tundra.) Thus you didnt need to irrigate any other tiles after the one N of Canton before going directly to the wheat and irrigating (yes, that was the idea.)

- You should always research Code of Laws before Philosohpy. The former is useful for Courthouses, the latter is not.

- Shanghai doesn't have rapid food growth. We should be allowing it to grow so it can produce spears for our colonies as quickly as possible.

- If we are planning to build the Pyramids, we don't need Pottery. Besides which, it's cheap to purchase.

- If there's a choice between tech and contacts to purchase, usually it's better to purchase contact first as that lowers the cost to purchase research. The Wheel might have been an exception to let us know where horses are, and we'd prefer to encounter other civs by exploring, but we could make back most of the contact $$ by trading with the Iroquois.

More later...
 
Originally posted by Zed-F
A couple quick comments, more details later.

- A city provides a thru-way for irrigation if it's built on irrigable terrain (i.e. not hills or tundra.) Thus you didnt need to irrigate any other tiles after the one N of Canton before going directly to the wheat and irrigating (yes, that was the idea.)

I did not know that. Another thing learned :goodjob:

- You should always research Code of Laws before Philosohpy. The former is useful for Courthouses, the latter is not.

I went with Philosophy because it was 'cheaper' in turns to learn...I was hoping that subsequent contact with the other Civs would lower the price on Code of Laws

- Shanghai doesn't have rapid food growth. We should be allowing it to grow so it can produce spears for our colonies as quickly as possible.

This is why I was thinking of building a granary in Shanghai, to make it grow faster...however, see below :)


- If we are planning to build the Pyramids, we don't need Pottery. Besides which, it's cheap to purchase.

I wasn't sure if we were planning on building Wonders...


- If there's a choice between tech and contacts to purchase, usually it's better to purchase contact first as that lowers the cost to purchase research. The Wheel might have been an exception to let us know where horses are, and we'd prefer to encounter other civs by exploring, but we could make back most of the contact $$ by trading with the Iroquois.

I tried trading for contact, but the Iroquois and the Japanese both wanted what I considered to be 'too much' (treasury + 1gpt), when they wanted to trade at all. My thought was if the Japanese had encountered the other 3 Civs, then they must be relatively close to the Japanese borders, and thus we would meet up with them shortly.


More later...
Click to expand...

I'm looking forward to it :)
:sheep:
 
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