ZF1 - Zed's Training Day Game

Mysterious begins another reign but this one will be very different from the previous ones. The nation has been at war and will be at war again soon.

Preturn, I found a whole bunch of Pikemen sleeping in various towns.
When I'm through, I round up 9 Pikes, 1 Swordsman and 1 Rider. I send them all toward Japan. Every city is defended and half our cities are building military so I don't think the homeland is in any jeopardy.

I also swap a few cathedrals to other more useful items.
I notice our huge amount of gold and decide to flip on research to go for Banking. Education in 4 and we're still making 176 gpt.

So, here we go...

IT
Japan lands some military near our cities...interesting.

760AD
All available troops moving to Japanese border.
Fortifying all former Iroquois lands.
1st ring cities all building troops.
2nd ring cities almost down with infrastructure.

770AD
I demand that the Japanese military leave our territory. They do so.
England will not pay for an ROP. What's the point?
Nor will Babylon. Actually, no alliances possible. Is everyone
afraid of us?

780AD
Continuous Northern troop movement. We're ready. Japan still won't leave so I send some military to great them.

IT Japan demands we remove our forces. I politely decline and we go to war.

790AD
Much war. Matsuyama goes down with one casualty.

IT
Golden Age is over.

800AD
Nara and Satsuma are ours. We lose two Riders this time. After first Pike, Japanese cities have only spearmen left.

IT
We learn Education and switch to Banking in 5.

810AD
Kyoto goes down with no losses. Wow, the Japanese really have no mobile force at all and they are falling fast.

820AD
We find Samurai!!! Only one though and our first Rider takes him out.
I doubt we see too many more as they are so expensive and most of Japan's high production cities are gone.
I sell Education to Persia for their world map and some gold. I'd like to see if anyone has knowledge of the Zulu. It appears not as they don't know anymore than we do.

IT
Japanese request an audience, but I decline.
They have an army! Oops, not really. Just archers. HAHAHA
Second ring cities now done with Infra. Most cities now building military.

830AD
Entire West side of Japan is gone...just 7 cities left. I'm really not
having any trouble at all. The Riders appear to be indefensible for
now.

IT
Lots of stuff built this turn. Most outer cities and former Iroquois
lands building granaries, temples and marketplaces. Also, workers set to roads and irrigation as shields are lost to corruption too quickly.

840
Japanese army is defeated with one Rider.
We razed the first two capital cities. One will be replaced this turn. The other has a settler on the way (using goto orders).

IT
Persia appears to be getting frisky as they are sending much military around and through our new lands. Watch out that cities are not left undefended.
English finish the Great Lighthouse. We switch ours to Sistine. Sorry Zed, the project had too many shields into it and I hate wasting that many so I let it continue.

850AD
Ok, the settler near Satsuma is the one on goto orders. It is heading for the spot that is currently fortified with a pikeman west of former Kyoto.
I have left two Riders in Beijing for homeland defense. The English have been sending many boats through our waters and I'd like to be ready if they try something.
Japan will only give us one city in exchange for peace so I say we
crush them. Hopefully, they won't sell Chivalry first.
Banking in 1 and Leonardo in 1. Do we turn science off again or continue on to Military Tradition. No one else appears to be researching at any speed.
Current Military, 49 Pikes and 41 Riders.
War weariness does not appear to be a problem yet, though I believe Hangchow had 4 happy/4 unhappy citizens.

and so endith the reign...
 
I must say that I very much enjoyed that turn. It appears that Zed has given the three of us the foundation to start and maintain a fast moving war. Nice job everyone. Let's continue on through the English and Persians. We have 41 Riders now and are building more than we lose. Of course, as soon as the English have Chivalry it may become more difficult. Here's the save...
 
First, a Q, then an answer to yours.

We really have 2 cores, our original cities and our newly conquered territory (say 3 rings around our FP.) I suspect when you say all infra is done in our core, you mean in our original cities, minus perhaps Shantung and Padmativa. Is that correct? If so, we really still have a lot of infrastructure and land improvement to go, around our second core. That's what I was thinking of rushing with all our income, as it will further boost our economy as we gain pop in those cities. The other thing I was thinking we could do with our cash is rush units in far-off cities (we have Sun Tzu after all) where we don't want to wait for units to arrive from the core, especially slow-moving infantry.

-----

In answer to your question, well the game is pretty much won at this point (really was won by the time we were ready to attack the Iros.) So, the question becomes, which one of multiple paths to victory do you want to choose from? :) So far, I've been guiding us towards quickest win. This means, we focus on two things: economy and military. Our economy is there ultimately to build and support military, and we use whatever military tools are currently available or easily obtained to do it -- especially when we have an advantage due to our UU. In this mode, we don't want to spend our cash on trying to get a tech advantage, because it takes a long time to build up a serious tech advantage since it's relatively easy for the other civs to catch up (we research at 1st-Civ prices, they don't,) and that time and cash could be used instead to further improve our economy and military presence in exponential fashion, which will let us win the game faster. In short, in Civ 3, quantity and timeliness trumps quality -- 15 built and 15 purchased Riders now is more effective at winning the game quickly than 15 built Riders upgraded to Cavalry later. This is true even if we already have 60 Riders (quite possible by now) even though 60 Riders is already an overwhelming force, since it lets us open up more concurrent fronts so we can conquer more places faster.

Note, there will come a point when even investing cash in more economy will not be useful in speeding our victory, and investing cash in more military at the front will be faster. We're not at that point yet, but we will be in another 20-30 turns. Since we now have Banks, now is the right time to make one last infra push in our primary core (for Banks) and to build up infra in our secondary core (FP area) before turning everything over to military for the rest of the game. The former is easy since our primary core cities are all big enough to build them directly, but for the secondary core to get built up quickly we will need to spend cash, and lots of it. I'm not 100% convinced that the extra cash we will get from Banks will be worth the production invested in building them and the cash we spent researching them instead of rushing improvements earlier in our secondary core, but they're good in the long term and not hugely costly in the short term so they will probably turn out to be worth it. Also note that we can probably spend cash to build infra faster than we can reap the benefits since the FP area is fairly underdeveloped land-wise (hence we need LOTS of workers there to improve the land quickly enough to make a big impact) and since it takes time for the pop to grow. Check out my previous comment on this matter:

In our FP city (Tientsin), we're nearly done the aqueduct, so it's time to catch up on food production. Our ideal would be to grow the turn after we complete the aqueduct and go from there. Rush any infra needed to grow to 12 asap. Same for any cities in the same general area; we have over 2K gold and are getting income at a good rate so go ahead and rush any infra that will do some immediate good anywhere around our FP, especially granaries and temples first off, followed by aqueducts, markets, and courthouses once they've got big enough to take advantage. Beyond that, they ought to be able to build other improvements themselves.

Be on the lookout for Iro cities with high food potential but limited in size or number of good tile radius, and not really close to the FP. Target those cities for worker production (i.e. don't build an aqueduct.) We are soon going to have a LOT of jungle to clear, and while we have a good number of workers already, more is almost always better.
Click to expand...

That quote shows the spirit of what I'm suggesting we try to accomplish here. Ideally we should tailor our investment in infra in our second core to match the growth rate of the cities there, as I mentioned, but it might be simpler if slightly less cost-effective to just rush everything now and swap it to military afterwards while we let it grow up to its potential.

---------

Quickest win is not the only way to go. There are other paths to victory; we can pretty much pick and choose which one we want to take. We could consolidate our hold over Japan and never make another offensive move, build up a ridiculous tech lead, and eventually win the space race. We could research tech until we get to the Industrial age, rail everything in sight while the AI civs struggle to get out of the Middle Ages, complete Hoover before the AIs finish their first factories, and then roll over them with WWI-era tanks/infantry/artillery while they try and defend themselves with Civil War era cavalry/rifles/cannon. We could just go for cavalry/rifles/cannon ourselves and then milk that advantage as long as we can. All of those paths are slower than simply rolling over the enemy by exponentially growing our economy and military using currently available tech, but they could be done. For me, though, it just becomes a question of how long do you want to let the game drag on while you toy with your opponents. I don't really like this phase of the game, as my computer is slow and my time and patience are limited; moving a dozen or two or even 50 units around every turn is ok, but more than that gets tedious for me, even with the "j" command. The same goes for worrying about what to build next in dozens of cities, especially when I feel like I have to bring out the veto hammer at the beginning of my turn and examine every last city. So, I have been guiding this game towards the quickest win approach, but I don't think I'm doing you a disservice by doing so, since the same lessons that you need to learn for quickest win are required for just about any other kind of win as well. It just becomes a question of how soon/late you get to the point where you have enough of an economic/military presence to safely pursue whatever other goals you have in mind. Even in an OCC usually the struggle in the early game is to get infrastructure built as quickly as possible so you can build up enough cash to cover your tech purchase and bribery needs later in the game.

The optimal path in the game is to lie in wait, build up your economy, and deter the AIs from coming after you (or distracting them when they do) until you are ready to fight on your own terms, and then go for the throat. So, if you know how to do that, you can win at any level. The only differences at higher levels are, you have to lie in wait and build up longer before you can break out, you have to be more skillful at manipluating the AI civs to prevent them from going after you before you can break out, you have to be more careful about how you break out (especially in terms of when to build military vs. infrastructure, and when to go after what opponent), and you have to be better at avoiding serious mistakes, since the game is less forgiving of them. Despite all that, however, the basic formula is the same.
 
In terms of End-Game scenario:

I'd like to shoot for a Domination/Conquest...however, I want to take out the hidden civ in doing so. My naval skills (in addition to all my other military skills) are quite inadequate, and some commentary on that would be keen. I would say: finish off Japan, fortify our holdings, discover Astronomy, then launch the Armada :) Once we conquer the hidden continent, if that doesn't give us Domination, then we can dispose of our neighbors.

But that's just my thought, and y'all can chime in with your own.
 
Comments on Mysterious's turn:

Pretty much I've already said everything. Banking will probably turn out to be worthwhile but I'd shut off research now. If we research Military tradition it will just make it that much easier for the AIs to do the same, blowing our UU advantage to some degree, and we can better use our funds to build up our 2nd core. We might revisit that decision if we find ourselves having to go up against muskets a lot, but otherwise we will probably remain a tech laggard and let the AIs research for us. (What do we need for mil tradition? Gunpowder, which we know the English have, then Chemistry, Metallurgy, and Mil Tradition. That's a lot of tech to research at 1st civ prices. We can afford to wait a bit longer and just pick up stuff on the cheap for now.)

Priorities right now are finish off the Japs and concentrate on building up our 2nd core, both in terms of infrastructure and in terms of improving the lands there. We should also be able to set up for an attack against the next domino to fall. Who do we want to go after next, an easy target or a harder one? I didn't see any diplo moves that would prevent us from going after anybody without wrecking our rep, but check the active trade screen to make sure. If we go after England soon, we might be able to give them the business before they build too many muskets, but if we hold off and go after a weaker target we can get an overwhelming numerical advantage by the time we deal with them, and who knows, we may have gotten around to getting Mil Tradition by then.

Padme, it's up to you! :hammer:
 
Ok, I understand your methods. Hmmmm, ChrTh would like to build boats and go conquer other lands. With our current amount of Riders/Riders in production, I think we could take our continent in the next 20-40 turns. That 3 movement thing is awesome and really gets you into the back lines quickly. If we decide to go the boat route, we need to keep research going through Astronomy. My first instinct would be to keep pushing our own continent as Zed outlines. That is what we would normally want to do. Padma, your vote breaks the tie!
 
I was going to say we need at least Galleons to effectively do a naval assault on a Standard map, but we might be able to get away with Caravels backed by Magellan's. The problem won't likely be controlling the waters, it will be getting troops over there fast enough. Still, Caravels are cheap enough that in 10 turns we could build quite a few. Strictly speaking, the best approach is to finish our own continent first, and then ship stuff over to Zululand; this will slow down our overall win, but so long as you realize that, what the heck, it's a training game, right? :)

Here's one possible plan for the next bit, if we really want to do a naval invasion of Zululand now.
- Next 0-10 turns: 1st core building first Banks, then starting on galleys. 2nd core building infrastructure. Pop settlers/workers in size 12 cities. Military mopping up Japan, starts moving towards rallying points for ships. Research Astronomy at frugal rate, use spare cash to rush infra in 2nd core, upgrade galleys when done Astronomy and start Navigation. Initial ships off exploring.
- 10-20 turns: Finish Navigation, start Magellans, turn research off. 1st core still building boats and military. 2nd core still primarily building infrastructure. Boats and military move to rally points and start embarquing for Zululand. Make sure to take a few settlers along.
- 20-30 turns: Once we've got enough boats (say a dozen or so), swap back to pure military in 1st core, and 2nd core when done infra. Keep popping settlers/workers from size 12 cities. Use boats to reinforce Zululand attack forces as necessary, but not all units will be needed for that, so we will also be rebuilding our local army. Cash to be used for rushing needed improvements to consolidate conquests in Zululand as well as catching up on tech. By this point the local AIs will probably have finished researching close enough to Metallurgy/Magnetism/Mil Tradition that it would be worth it for us to finish up on them.

This way we will still have to deal with England, Persia, and the Babs by the time we get done with the Zulus. In contrast, we will probably be done with 2 of those and making headway on the 3rd in 30 turns if we do it the usual way and leave the Zulus for last. I don't think we'll be likely to get a domination victory without taking out at least some of the Zulu holdings even if we go the normal route.

I should also point out that naval battles before the Industrial age tend to be quite boring, as there's insufficient differentiation in the types of ships available. The only difference at this point in the game between battling the Zulu and battling our local opponents is how easy/hard it is to reinforce. That tends to be less of a concern when naval warfare really comes into play in the Industrial age because transports can hold a lot of units and move reasonably quickly. Most people don't bother with assaults on other continents before then unless there's nothing else left to do military-wise, since they are a management nuisance and you have to rebuild an army to take the rest of the folks on your continent anyway.
 
OK, I've got it. I should be able to play tomorrow or this weekend.

I think I'm with Mystery, here. take care of our continent first, then go after the Zulus.

I see my plan as being to finish off the Japanese, build banks in our primary core, infrastructure in our secondary core. Gather our troops for the next war (probably England?).

Question regarding "finishing the Japanese": should I go after those 2 (I think) cities in the far west? Or leave them and make peace after I get their old homeland? I only ask because they are quite a distance away.
 
Well, you probably would have to go through a whole bunch of English/Persian/Babylonian territory to get there. I'd think it would be simpler to just sign a peace treaty as soon as you finish with their old homeland. If you're feeling really nasty you can see what it would take to get the Babs to finish them off for you. :sniper:
 
You could probably get there by Galley, it'd be quicker than working through the Jungle.

Or in the Peace Treaty, get everything but the capital.
 
Actually, I believe you'll find that I've just dropped off two elite Riders on the hill overlooking the far west coastal city. Should be plenty to finish off those two. I'd take them out fast to see if we could keep Chivalry to ourselves.
 
If one of them is the Capital, hit that one last, since we can't raze it...if the Capital is still near us, get those two Western Cities first, unless we want to be stuck with one of them.
 
Sorry folks. My grandmother died Friday evening (she was 104). I have tried to play this, but have just not been able to get into it, what with funeral preparations, etc.

Rather than delay the game, just have ChrTh finish whooping the Japanese, and I'll slide back in after Mystery again. Assuming we haven't won by then. :)
 
Yes, I can empathize. My grandmother is 95 and while physically healthy, her mind isn't what it used to be...
 
Turn 0 -- 850 AD
Let's mop up the Japanese...

Good lord, a stack 'o' Archers!

Turn 1 -- 860 AD
We get Banking...I go with Gunpowder
We complete Leo's Workshop!

Beijing starts Bank
Chinan completes Granary, begins Harbor
The Persians and English are building Sistine Chapel.
Erk! The Japanese settled Osaka (it's in the jungle near Caugh... again)

Nagasaki is ours
We auto-raze Kyoto
I hurry a Harbor in Cataurgus so I can build troops there

Turn 2 -- 870 AD
A whole mess of troops are built
The Persians are looking to stick a city in our rightful territory...I may start a war shortly
The Japanese stack of Archers is about to hit Tyendaga...it's a waste of space and I'll probably get yelled at...but I abandon it.
We capture Shimon and Bactra
I decide to make Peace with the Japanese...they're down to just Sapporo (extreme West).
I'm going to reconstitute our armies and prepare for the next victim.
By the way, we now have 7 luxuries :D
I abandon Kyoto as its indefensible and surrounded by a whole bunch of other troops.

I hurry a bunch of Temples.

Turn 3 -- 880 AD
We Love the Chairman Days all over

Turn 4 -- 890 AD
Start building a few banks
Lots of troop and worker movement
The British have met the Zulu...she wants Silk, but instead I give her Education + 50 gold (don't want to lock us into anything)
I give Shaka Contact with the Japanese for their Territory Map...and that makes him go from Annoyed to Furious. I establish an Embassy, and now he's just Annoyed.
Remarkably, we have a Tech lead (although the British do have Gunpowder).

Turn 5 -- 900 AD
MMOW

Turn 6 -- 910 AD
Our palace gets a Wing! We get a second Wing!
It has come to my attention that War with the British is predestined. I try to get her to remove her forces from our territory (i.e. her workers). She doesn't declare War.
Zed, I expect being yelled at for a lot of things during my turn, but I'm tired of British insolence...it's time for them to pay!
I give the Babylonians Education to help me fight the English. I'll let them kill off the scattered Western cities for me.

Norwich falls. Reading succumbs.

Turn 7 -- 920 AD
Our Cultural Influence expands like a nuke
Liverpool is ours.

Turn 8 -- 930 AD
We take Cambridge...We produce a Great Leader! I create an Army of Elite Riders.
Dover falls
Coventry falls

Turn 9 -- 940 AD
Hastings falls
Our Army captures Richmond...I change Beijing to Heroic Epic (due in 4 turns)

Turn 10 -- 950 AD
Another great Leader! Sun Tzu! I create another Army, but no one joins it before the end of the turn (there's an Elite rider waiting for it).
I capture Gloucester and Birmingham and York (oh my!). The Army is sitting in York.

I placed a stack of Riders smack dab in the heart of Persia. If we declare War (and I think you should immediately, Mystery13 (although wait until it's your turn, otherwise Persia has initiative)), we should be able to immediately take 5 cities, if not more.

I think our plan of attack should be as follows: conquer the Eastern portion of England, conquer the central portion of Persia (which is all but one of their cities), then march our armies West and round up the stragglers, including Babylon (once our Alliance expires, if we care to wait that long).

There may be a couple workers that move on Join orders, and I think I have a Settler on extended GoTo.

BTW, Chivalry has been passed around, but I haven't seen any Knights yet. England has not produced a single Musketman.

Here's the save:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/ZF1-china-950ad.zip

And here's our freshly conquered land:
ZF1-china-950ad.jpg
 
Mystery13's unavailable 'til Wednesday, so Padma, if you get back before then, you can probably grab it.

Or Zed-F, if you want to play a turn ;)
 
Hmm. Maybe we can acheive Domination without invading Zululand. It's smaller than I expected.

Comments later...
 
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