1.18 Civics Changes

What if the unimproved land commerce from Elective was moved to Manorialism and Elective's supertiles were restored? The land commerce buff being same as the farm commerce buff implying that it's buffing farming in general, with working unimproved tiles representing subsistence farming. Also maintains the theming of the first 4 society civics focusing on tile improvements.
 
What if the unimproved land commerce from Elective was moved to Manorialism and Elective's supertiles were restored? The land commerce buff being same as the farm commerce buff implying that it's buffing farming in general, with working unimproved tiles representing subsistence farming. Also maintains the theming of the first 4 society civics focusing on tile improvements.
I'm pretty sure than Manoralism represents exact opposite of free farming, with manors and serfdom being the source of wealth, and Medieval Farms representing such feudal manors/domens.
 
I'm pretty sure than Manoralism represents exact opposite of free farming, with manors and serfdom being the source of wealth, and Medieval Farms representing such feudal manors/domens.
I'm pretty sure most of the farms in medieval europe were subsistence farms. Like, yes, lords owned the land and the serfs were bound to the land and taxed a portion of each harvest, but commercial scale farming was not the norm, after taxation and consumption, peasants rarely had much if any surplus to sell at local markets. I'd call that quite the definition of subsistence farming.
 
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after taxation and consumption
This is kinda the point of manoralism. The land itself is the main mean of production, the economy runs on surplus of serfs' toil that is appropriated by the landlords as a payment for using land for serfs subsistence. I think that Farms represent such domains, while unimproved lands represent disorganised, sparsely populated areas (which are most useful if you run a (loose) confederation aka Elective).
 
This is kinda the point of manoralism. The land itself is the main mean of production, the economy runs on surplus of serfs' toil that is appropriated by the landlords as a payment for using land for serfs subsistence. I think that Farms represent such domains, while unimproved lands represent disorganised, sparsely populated areas (which are most useful if you run a (loose) confederation aka Elective).
Manoralist economies, by the definition of subsistence farming, ran on subsistence farming. I am not aware of any definition of subsistence farming that precludes taxation, but subsistence farming is not commercial farming. Commercial farms grow a small number of high-yield crops, benefiting greatly from the economics of scale, whereas subsistence farms grow a great variety of crops such that most basic needs are met. Unless I am mistaken, serfs grew a great variety of crops under manorialism, and not the limited variety typical of commercial scale farms.
 
Manoralist economies, by the definition of subsistence farming, ran on subsistence farming. I am not aware of any definition of subsistence farming that precludes taxation, but subsistence farming is not commercial farming. Commercial farms grow a small number of high-yield crops, benefiting greatly from the economics of scale, whereas subsistence farms grow a great variety of crops such that most basic needs are met. Unless I am mistaken, serfs grew a great variety of crops under manorialism, and not the limited variety typical of commercial scale farms.
Are you implying that Farms improvement should appear only with historical Capitalism where commerical farms (which are better represented as Plantation/Orchards in game) became widespread? Ingame Farms clearly focus on :food:, Manoralism enchances them with :commerce: representing the landlords and the gentry making profit from serfdom.

Non-improved plots, however, have no associated yield.
 
Are you implying that Farms improvement should appear only with historical Capitalism where commerical farms (which are better represented as Plantation/Orchards in game) became widespread? Ingame Farms clearly focus on :food:, Manoralism enchances them with :commerce: representing the landlords and the gentry making profit from serfdom.

Non-improved plots, however, have no associated yield.
From my understanding, manorialism in Europe developed as trade broke down following the collapse of the empire, and the localities needed to be more self-sufficient. Of course, how this translates in-game is a bit subjective. But I'd argue that representing non-improved tiles with +1 :commerce: is a good way to represent the lack of development and decentralization that characterized manorialism in the early middle ages. And the development of farm improvements can represent the maturity from those early stages in the early middle ages.
 
Are you implying that Farms improvement should appear only with historical Capitalism where commerical farms (which are better represented as Plantation/Orchards in game) became widespread? Ingame Farms clearly focus on :food:, Manoralism enchances them with :commerce: representing the landlords and the gentry making profit from serfdom.

Non-improved plots, however, have no associated yield.
Are you implying that Capitalism invented cash crops?

Non-improved plots are associated with all three yields, while farms are associated with food because cash crops are often staple crops used to facilitate the separation of labour, with plantations and orchards covering non-staple cash crops. Subsistence farming does not facilitate separation of labour anywhere near as well, which is why it rarely yields more than 2 food.
 
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Are you implying that Capitalism invented cash crops?
What stops a serf from working on cash crops, while still being a part of a manor/a feudal domain and not a modernish commercial farm? And again, they are better represented by Orchards and Plantations than Farms.

Payment to the landlord could well substitute more than a half of peasant's toil (iirc in some Medieval states it was 6 days of toiling for the lord, 1 day of working for yourself). This is kinda the surplus value that was used by the landlords (being used to feed themselves and their court, armies, being sold to cities outside of farmer markets etc). That's what i meant by appropriation of surplus production (be it food, animals, raw materials etc), and this is, what i presume, represented by Manoralism.

How Manoralism would work with disorganised, sparsely populated unimproved tiles - that's the question. I don't think it should in any way, because it draws power from a hierarchical society with a strict organisation.
 
What stops a serf from working on cash crops, while still being a part of a manor/a feudal domain and not a modernish commercial farm? And again, they are better represented by Orchards and Plantations than Farms.

Payment to the landlord could well substitute more than a half of peasant's toil (iirc in some Medieval states it was 6 days of toiling for the lord, 1 day of working for yourself). This is kinda the surplus value that was used by the landlords (being used to feed themselves and their court, armies, being sold to cities outside of farmer markets etc). That's what i meant by appropriation of surplus production (be it food, animals, raw materials etc), and this is, what i presume, represented by Manoralism.

How Manoralism would work with disorganised, sparsely populated unimproved tiles - that's the question. I don't think it should in any way, because it draws power from a hierarchical society with a strict organisation.
The fact serfs had to provide for their basic needs stopped them from engaging in commercial farming. Commercial farming has existed since the development of complex societies. It became more viable with advances in Chemistry and Genetics, and that's why those techs give +1 food to farms, but it has still existed throughout history. If unimproved land does not represent subsistence agriculture, what does it represent? Hunter-gatherers? Were there tons of hunter-gatherers living outside of city centers in medieval Europe? Should the 600 CE map be amended to have farms everywhere?
 
The fact serfs had to provide for their basic needs stopped them from engaging in commercial farming. Commercial farming has existed since the development of complex societies. It became more viable with advances in Chemistry and Genetics, and that's why those techs give +1 food to farms, but it has still existed throughout history. If unimproved land does not represent subsistence agriculture, what does it represent? Hunter-gatherers? Were there tons of hunter-gatherers living outside of city centers in medieval Europe? Should the 600 CE map be amended to have farms everywhere?
And what Farms represent, then?

It's a measure of organisation. Unimproved tiles are free farmers, small nobles with only a handful serfs, semi-independent or autonomous communities (hence confederative Elective improves these titles, having natural knack for local autonomies and loose organisation), or simply lands inhabitated by almost none (like deep Siberia or territories recently ravaged by pillages). Farms (and Plantations, and so on) are more centralised, organised and efficent tiles, for example, a domain of an influential landlord who bought a lot of land and commands thousands of serfs, massive modern agricultural holdings, communal farmings of Communist states, and so on. When a workers build a Farm in Manoralist civ, it basically represents how the land organises under command of a feudal(s) who pay taxes to the Crown, hence the bonus (and contradicting the Elective bonus).

It leaves open the question why Manoralism should buff tiles that lack, uh, manors.

The fact serfs had to provide for their basic needs stopped them from engaging in commercial farming
Farmer markets existed (serfs lived by selling their goods above their own consumption and buying what they need), but it's not like farmer markets were larger part of economy than what remained in landlord property. And landlords sure can sell their surplus (aka more than a half of) production for profit, which sounds... commercial?
 
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That reads like you're using different words to say that unimproved tiles are subsistence farms and farms are commercial farms
Uh, let's say you are a noble, you own some villages with like 1000 (add zeroes to your taste) serfs. They rent your land to feed themselves, they pay you for it with, say, half of their production. Can it be called a commerical farming? It's not like you found these villages, it's not like you do it purely for commerical profit (likely you care more for food provisions for your levies, horses for knights and other military needs and wine to make the archbishop more agreeable, and something to pay to your liege - speaking in general terms, of course). The gentry aren't the bourguise.

Surely you yield more stuff to the crown than a bunch of villages that fend for themselves. Hence +yields. And because the economy and the politics of the state revolve around likes of you (especially if Vassalage is also taken), your domain - a Farm, an organised land dedicated to agriculture, even if it is necessity because agriculture is so horribly inefficent that 90%+ population have to work in fields to avoid mass starvation (which will happen anyway with the next dry spell) - grows in importance to the state. Or vice versa.

Until those pesky merchants amass enough wealth via global trade to take the charge and switch civic to Individualism. Those b*stards.
 
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Uh, let's say you are a noble, you own some villages with like 1000 (add zeroes to your taste) serfs. They rent your land to feed themselves, they pay you for it with, say, half of their production. Can it be called a commerical farming? It's not like you found these villages, it's not like you do it purely for commerical profit (likely you care more for food provisions for your levies, horses for knights and other military needs and wine to make the archbishop more agreeable, and something to pay to your liege - speaking in general terms, of course). The gentry aren't the bourguise.

Surely you yield more stuff to the crown than a bunch of villages that fend for themselves. Hence +yields. And because the economy and the politics of the state revolve around likes of you (especially if Vassalage is also taken), your domain - a Farm, an organised land dedicated to agriculture, even if it is necessity because agriculture is so horribly inefficent that 90%+ population have to work in fields to avoid mass starvation (which will happen anyway with the next dry spell) - grows in importance to the state. Or vice versa.

Until those pesky merchants amass enough wealth via global trade to take the charge and switch civic to Individualism. Those b*stards.
No, of course not, that sounds like a more decentralized, disorganized, and inefficient system when compared to commercial farming, only half of the crop is a monoculture in your example
 
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Considering they'd be paying you almost exclusively in a single cash crop, for example, in Europe taxes were usually required to be paid in wheat, yes, that's, by definition, commercial farming when half of their production is a monoculture.
Uh, commerce cash = grown to make profit. A noble could use the food to supply his town (because townsfolk tends to die when not fed, even for money), court or to supply troops. It's not like wheat was terribly profitable (although some was probably sold to parties other than noble's subjects), it was a necessity.

Also form of payment depended on the region. At least in the Eastern Europe the taxes were paid directly by toiling on whatever the lord deems fit (famously some forced their serfs to sign during collecting fruits and berries to prevent them from eating).

Regardless of definitions, i don't see how unimproved tiles would benefit from Manoralism.

As a side note, by your definition even humble Floodplains are commerce farming because they produce more than workers on them consume.
 
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Uh, commerce cash = grown to make profit. A noble could use the food to supply his town (because townsfolk tends to die when not fed, even for money), court or to supply troops. It's not like wheat was terribly profitable (although some was probably sold to parties other than noble's subjects), it was a necessity.

Also form of payment depended on the region. At least in the Eastern Europe the taxes were paid directly by toiling on whatever the lord deems fit (famously some forced their serfs to sign during collecting fruits and berries to prevent them from eating).

Regardless of definitions, i don't see how unimproved tiles would benefit from Manoralism.
Because historically manorialism was defined by subsistence agriculture?
 
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Uh, commerce cash = grown to make profit. A noble could use the food to supply his town (because townsfolk tends to die when not fed, even for money), court or to supply troops. It's not like wheat was terribly profitable (although some was probably sold to parties other than noble's subjects), it was a necessity.

Also form of payment depended on the region. At least in the Eastern Europe the taxes were paid directly by toiling on whatever the lord deems fit (famously some forced their serfs to sign during collecting fruits and berries to prevent them from eating).

Regardless of definitions, i don't see how unimproved tiles would benefit from Manoralism.

As a side note, by your definition even humble Floodplains are commerce farming because they produce more than workers on them consume.
That is not my definition. Unimproved flood plains are subsistence farms, but subsistence farms in flood plains historically had much more surplus crop, which was why complex societies tended to develop around them more easily
 
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Because historically manorialism was defined by subsistence agriculture?
How can it be defined by it if landlords still had surplus value?

Subsistence is by definition affording just enough to feed ones who work the land. Kinda surplus food is what led to formation of the advanced societies.

Again, if Manoralism is defined by subsistence, then Farms shouldn't even appear until agrarian revolution or something? Because Civilization have Farms available way before Manoralism, clearly indicating land dedicated to agriculture.
 
How can it be defined by it if landlords still had surplus value?

Subsistence is by definition affording just enough to feed ones who work the land. Kinda surplus food is what led to formation of the advanced societies.

Again, if Manoralism is defined by subsistence, then Farms shouldn't even appear until agrarian revolution or something? Because Civilization have Farms available way before Manoralism, clearly indicating land dedicated to agriculture.
There was still commercial farming under Manorialism, just not as much as in non-manorialistic societies.
 
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