banzay13
King
Anyone use Vassalage now? With such strong civic as Theocracy, witch give you happiness, production and synergy stability bonus with Clergy...
1.18 Civics Changes
- Thread starter Leoreth
- Start date
TsimTsigal
Warlord
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- Mar 7, 2023
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- 156
In theory it has very good synergy with Manoralism and a few other civics. In practice i'm not from food-for-troops gang (i'm from a whip enjoyer gang), maybe Hickman888 made it work (we respectfully argued if whipping is better way to convert food into production than Monarchy + Feudalism in 1.17).
Hickman888
Prince
Theocracy seems good, but it requires initial investment into religious buildings to see it begin to pay back out. I've never liked building religious buildings too much in DoC, only if needed for a UHV or a Great Prophet. But Vassalage, paired with Monarchy has some real potential. I haven't really played with them on the new map/civic patch yet, but as TsimTsigal said, I find that ability to be so powerful. Hookup all the nearby food resources, grow your cities to 4-6, and use all that surplus food for military production.
Correct, food-for-troops is probably my single favorite ability in the game, and with the new Monarchy buffing that ability even more: Wow. Additionally, I think Despotism also received a nerf with the new civic patch (which I don't think it was needed, what with Monarchy being buffed so much). So things have never looked more favorably for the food-for-troops meta than they do right now, IMO.
Food for troops makes early European conquest all the easier. As England I'm able to conquer France Italy and Portugal. Similarly for others.
Zaddy
Prince
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- Jan 14, 2018
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- 356
Is it intended that Secularism now causes unhappiness from religions now? This causes very high unhappiness from adopting Secularism in multi-religious cities (like those caused by immigration, or in various places in Asia), which seems off? Secularism would now be a pretty meh civic even without this issue.
Dracosolon
King
I don't think it's unfitting for Secularism to get unhappiness from many religions but it should maybe have some 
to compensate. Maybe a flat bonus, or a bonus from some buildings (Zoos? Observatories?).
Though Secularism has also been bumped a bit earlier in the tech tree so it's expected it'd get a bit weaker.
to compensate. Maybe a flat bonus, or a bonus from some buildings (Zoos? Observatories?).Though Secularism has also been bumped a bit earlier in the tech tree so it's expected it'd get a bit weaker.
i think its implied that the unhappiness from secularism is intended to be counteracted by also running nationalism which gives a lot of happiness and since the +10% science from secularism is powerful
TsimTsigal
Warlord
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- Mar 7, 2023
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I think it was implicitly stated that the new version aims to less meta, more pro-choice civics with lesser clear synergies. And tbh there are better options than 10% beakers. I assume that Secularism was a bit overnerfed - it was no-brain choice in 1.17, which i honestly liked (it makes sense that Secularism should be prefered civic for the lategame).
urbestfriend
Warlord
- Joined
- Apr 15, 2014
- Messages
- 165
Interestingly after playing a few space race games, I found that for long term "to the end of the tree" type games, I often find myself going Clergy --> Secularism --> Syncretism. You want to get into Secularism asap for the diplo benefits more than anything - even the 10% science benefits can't compare to the open borders trade routes and general safety that comes with not having 40-70% of the world dislike you for your state religion. But eventually enough of the other civs will themselves adopt Secularism that you can jump into Syncretism which is almost always superior in my experience, the happiness and extra culture meaning you can grab and work enough tiles to make up for the extra beakers and stability that secularism would theoretically provide.
Zaddy
Prince
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- Jan 14, 2018
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- 356
I don't think it reflects actual patterns in secular countries - most religious people are not angry fanatics upset the government is not taking it upon itself to propagate their religion (with maybe some exceptions, sure). I also think in general Secularism should be the preferred civic in the late game... last patch it was obviously overtuned and got a deserved nerf, but right now it hardly even fills that role. I'm seriously considering adopting Syncreticism as America right now because the unhappiness is getting kinda brutal.I don't think it's unfitting for Secularism to get unhappiness from many religions but it should maybe have some
Though Secularism has also been bumped a bit earlier in the tech tree so it's expected it'd get a bit weaker.
10% research is pretty marginal really. The real reason one wants to switch to Secularism is to make diplo easier in the modern era, as urbestfriend says above. 10% research is imho weaker than any other bonus from the category except maybe +50% GP birth rate (not as good as it sounds).
Maggy_domain
Chieftain
- Joined
- Jun 15, 2018
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- 55
It is really good if you stack it with other modifiers. You can get insane gp spawn rates if you build around that (perfect for some UHVs)
Genghis Khaiser
King
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- Aug 10, 2012
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- 750
Is it intentional that under Secularism you can't build any religious wonders at all anymore?
Dracosolon
King
Honestly with how cracked tech currently is the most advanced secular civs could just build all the wonders past a certain point.
Wonders that require a state religion, yes.
TsimTsigal
Warlord
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- Mar 7, 2023
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Honestly Syncretism deserves some kind of drawback (because its bonuses are too thematic). Maybe more unhappiness from the state religion?
Sure, it lacks oomph (or any real bonuses at all unless you have Rice; +25%
is mostly useless), but if you have 2-3 different religions, it becomes waaaay too good. I personally haven't really used it that much (Kushans and Chinese games), but Pokemon gameplay of cherrypicking wonders is strong as ever. In theory Orthodoxy is a must have for proper Syncretic abuse due to Mount Athos.
Syncretism is fun, but they do vanish from areas they not belong, like Buddhism outside East-Persia vanishes fast.
A lot of wonders now demand state religion even 1900s ones, like Crystal Cathedral if you hover over it. Does this mean the USA in 1955 was a state religion state? As their constitution state, they not have an official religion. Brazil also since 1891 not has an official state religion, like the Christo Redendor demands you need. I'm unsure if the USA start secular?
A lot of wonders now demand state religion even 1900s ones, like Crystal Cathedral if you hover over it. Does this mean the USA in 1955 was a state religion state? As their constitution state, they not have an official religion. Brazil also since 1891 not has an official state religion, like the Christo Redendor demands you need. I'm unsure if the USA start secular?
1SDANi
The Fading Memory
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- Oct 27, 2014
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The USA started with tolerance in the old version IIRC because while it was secular in constitutional theory, in legal and societal practice it was very much a protestant state, with peoples of other faiths routinely and systematically disenfranchised and marginalized
AOS9001
Slightly over 9000.
- Joined
- Oct 1, 2009
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- 1,001
My (Catholic) grandmother once said many protestants she knew were afraid John F. Kennedy was going to put the United States in the service of the Pope back when he was running for president...
Anyways I'm intrigued by this new git update, I'm going to do the usual Netherlands test run a few times before I go to bed and see what happens.
Anyways I'm intrigued by this new git update, I'm going to do the usual Netherlands test run a few times before I go to bed and see what happens.
