1.18 Civics Changes

[AOS9001]

600 AD Netherland regent/normal start 1:
-founded Protestantism
-France is in the Renaissance but no one else in Europe is
-Ottomans not taking Constantinople, somehow bottled up in Anatolia despite Arabia's archer-only garrisons
-strong Arabia and Moors
-Mughals control every city in India but are Hindu (one city has Islam)
-tiny Russia
-two city Spain (doesn't even have paper or crop rotation in 1580)
-Portugal just got conquerors on Aztecs, big Incas still uncontacted
-zero European colonies besides Portuguese Elmina
-tech rate notes: the Arabs don't even have machinery but they are researching heritage (don't know how they survived the Mongols or Turks), the Chinese and Japanese are barely in the Renaissance, and the Mughals and France are still in the first half of the Renaissance

Start 2:
-founded Protestantism
-England and Sweden in the Renaissance, no one else in Europe is
-Ottomans took Greece and the Balkans but haven't moved further than Antioch into the independent Middle East
-four city Spain + Milan + Shigan (Oran?) but not Cordoba
-three way split in India between Mughals (who stayed Muslim!), Tamils, and India
-Aztecs getting mogged by Native gunpowder units pre-Colombian exchange (see screenshot) - is it possible to have these Natives with guns be tied to Europeans having at least one colony in North America?
-Russia controls Ukraine and most of the Ponitc-Caspian steppe
-zero European colonies besides French Dakar
-tech rate notes: Iran is just behind the Netherlands in tech (late spawn date at work probably), with England, Sweden, and China all with firearms and nothing else from the Renaissance. The entire rest of the world is at some point in the Medieval era still.

I only had time for two tonight, but in the interests of providing feedback: I think the tech rate adjustments are leaning too far on the side of punishing as of this initial update. However, this is only on the 600 AD start. Not sure I'll have time for 3000 BC tests until the weekend.

 

[Leoreth]

Yeah, I mostly balanced for the 3000 BC start. I think it's a general feature of that start that everyone but particularly Middle Eastern civs are doing better on that start.

 

[Tigranes]

-Mughals control every city in India but are Hindu (one city has Islam)

I confirm the strange problem with Islam in India under Mughals. Try no cities with Islam in 1800s. And they are just camping Hindu Missionaries in my cities. (Not sure why are we discussing tech re-balance in the civics thread?)

 

[Hickman888]

The USA started with tolerance in the old version IIRC because while it was secular in constitutional theory, in legal and societal practice it was very much a protestant state, with peoples of other faiths routinely and systematically disenfranchised and marginalized

I think USA started with Tolerance in the old version because Secularism wasn't unlocked until the end of the Industrial era.

 

[urbestfriend]

Genuinly curious how yall get these big Mughals. I almost never see them get bigger than 3 or 4 cities, they can't conquer the much stronger independents before the british and french show up and then the Indian respawn. But can confirm they will always be Hindu. That might be part of the problem, since they are Hindu they war with Iran a lot.

 

[AOS9001]

Not sure why are we discussing tech re-balance in the civics thread?)

Because I was a sleepy guy and posted in the wrong thread, my bad.

 

[Nyayr]

I have seen also 3000BC starts that at 1700 with Prussia, a lot are deep into industrial era and the rest at the start of it. Arabia can easily snowball, curbing Turkey down. France can also do very well, if Rome not been ruined to early on, with 3-4 cities. Britain generally does poorly, I never see London founded by Rome.

The variation is massive, also I generally play Epic, not normal speed.

 

[CometHalo]

Sorry if I’m just missing something simple, but how has the mechanics of whipping in Despotism changed cf. 1.17?

 

[triplebassist]

The ratio of hammers to pops whipped was decreased significantly, but I think that's the only change.

Sorry if I’m just missing something simple, but how has the mechanics of whipping in Despotism changed cf. 1.17?

 

[Leoreth]

It also stopped benefiting from building production speed modifiers.

 

[Dracosolon]

Like the double production speed from Citizenship, etc?

 

[TsimTsigal]

It also stopped benefiting from building production speed modifiers.

Press F for Redistribution Granaries being whipped on pop 2. You will be missed. Sorely, sorely missed. Well, maybe not that much if i haven't noticed them missing for so long.

 

[Leoreth]

Like the double production speed from Citizenship, etc?

Correct.

 

[Tigranes]

Can we please enhance Constitution somehow? 1 extra specialist pales in comparison with Bureaucracy by just way, way too much! The extra stuff for capital and 25% discount is good enough for the latter. Let's move buying ability to Constitution! Buying buildings is a real game changer!

 

[Dracosolon]

Yeah Bureaucracy is currently very good for late civs like America in particular.

 

[SultanRedSnake]

Just some coarse observations as of 1.17.4-191. All games were 600 AD / Monarch starts.

Caste System, Citzenship, and Republic are global favorites and almost universally preferred to the defaults of previous versions. I've seen a surprising amount of cases in which Redistribution is switched to even well into the Medieval Era, otherwise Reg Trade is preferred. In any case, Merchant Trade is scarcely seen. Clergy category sees decent variety but I have noticed that Monasticism as been rather trendy. Elective is rare. Somehow, I've seen cases of AI switching back to initial civics like Reciprocity and Kinship.

Ideas/Opinions: I suspect the current preferences can be accounted for more by the relative weakness of alternatives than the their individual merits. Some tweak proposals include doubling Manorialism improvement speed to 50% or perhaps retaining the current bonus and adding a 25% to worker build speed. Merchant Trade needs *something*; thinking thematically evokes a Happiness bonus of some kinda (like from the freedom to get rich/upward mobility or abundance of swag available to the population). As for Vassalage, and pending Leoreth's knowledge, I wonder if the AI might actually be deterred by the Food for Production since a consequence is growth being halted. Furthermore, though the trade with vassals bonus seems perfectly thematic, its application is rare compared to nearly every other civic effect. At the very least it could be increased, but I'd favor either ditching it in favor of an alternative or adding another effect. While I agree that the prior implementation was perhaps too generous, I'd consider bringing back some Free Unit Upkeep. Elective could be a good spot to stick the abandoned +2 global happiness. Regulated Trade is in a good spot balance-wise, but the bonus to Customs Houses has always felt anti-thematic to me (if premise that the civic refers to practices like crown monopolies and mercantilistic tendencies applies). Since it's doing no harm at the moment it can be left alone.

Lastly, and I'll concede in advance that the following is mostly a personal inclination: I miss the Capital Commerce effects. At the very least, a case could be made to give it back to Vassalage and perhaps increase to +2. I'd argue this would be more thematically appropriate (as a more accurate representative of tribute than trade income) and if only marginally would increase the civic's appeal. Otherwise, I'd request a general discussion about where and how we could pursue further synergies.

 

[Hickman888]

Merchant Trade needs *something*; thinking thematically evokes a Happiness bonus of some kinda (like from the freedom to get rich/upward mobility or abundance of swag available to the population).

IMO, the best way to boost Merchant Trade is to buff early/mid game trade routes, especially international trade routes. By the late game, international trade routes can be quite powerful, but in the early game they are still pretty "meh".

I'm not exactly sure what goes into calculating the value of a trade route, I think it takes into account population and distance, but I think it should also consider the level of the target city as well. Having level play a bigger role in calculating the trade route value also has the happy side effect of benefitting new civilizations more than longstanding ones. For example, Chinese cities are old and have a lot of in them. Upstart civilization Tibet signs open borders, and immediately gets access to several cultured cities, giving 4-5 per trade route. While China only gets maybe a couple of trade routes, worth 2-3 . But he still takes it, because its still better than domestic trade routes.

As for Vassalage, and pending Leoreth's knowledge, I wonder if the AI might actually be deterred by the Food for Production since a consequence is growth being halted. Furthermore, though the trade with vassals bonus seems perfectly thematic, its application is rare compared to nearly every other civic effect. At the very least it could be increased, but I'd favor either ditching it in favor of an alternative or adding another effect. While I agree that the prior implementation was perhaps too generous, I'd consider bringing back some Free Unit Upkeep.

I think free unit upkeep should stay with Totalitarianism, I like it there. Helps keep it economically competitive with Individualism and Egalitarianism.

Elective could be a good spot to stick the abandoned +2 global happiness.

+2 global happiness is very powerful, and IMO it should especially not go to any government civic, because then it would compete with Monarchy's bonus. I think it's fine that it got transformed to Theocracy's +2 from state religion.

Lastly, and I'll concede in advance that the following is mostly a personal inclination: I miss the Capital Commerce effects. At the very least, a case could be made to give it back to Vassalage and perhaps increase to +2.

I agree. Running Colonialism and watching my capital commerce rise with every colony I acquired really helped me feel like I was running a Mercantilist economy that was specifically designed to benefit the homeland. I like your idea of returning "+1 commerce in capital for every vassal city" to Vassalage... But I think the problem is that vassal states are a feature for the entire game, and it looks odd if a civilization in the modern era is running Vassalage to take advantage of its many vassals. I recall many people in 1.17 running Tributaries while conquering the world, despite the stability malus in the Industrial era, because it gave stability and commerce for all their vassals.

Maybe the solution is to make vassal states somehow less tenable in the Global/Digital era, so that Vassalage can return to +1 capital commerce for every vassal city, and be a solid mid-game civic?

 

[SultanRedSnake]

I think free unit upkeep should stay with Totalitarianism, I like it there. Helps keep it economically competitive with Individualism and Egalitarianism.

Totally forgot. Good spot.

+2 global happiness is very powerful, and IMO it should especially not go to any government civic, because then it would compete with Monarchy's bonus. I think it's fine that it got transformed to Theocracy's +2 from state religion.

Dang, more excellent points. I withdraw my submission.

 

[Dracosolon]

Maybe the specialist effects (+1 per specialist/+1 free specialist) should be swapped between Isolationism and Constitution. This could:
- Make Constitution more competitive against Bureaucracy and Isolationism less so against later civics,
- Simulate the explosion in urban populations in the modern era.

Alternatively, Bureaucracy could use some kind of nerf, maybe giving one of its effects to Constitution. It's currently my biggest "no-brainer" civic.

 

[SultanRedSnake]

Alternatively, Bureaucracy could use some kind of NERF, maybe giving one of its effects to Constitution. It's currently my biggest "no-brainer" civic.

(Bold caps added by me for emphasis)

I'm only quoting this because it reminded me of something I'd meant to bring up long ago to be tossed around and chewed on. Not to be read a contest per se, especially since you clearly qualified the remark as an alternative. The idea is also borrowed from various game developers and modders, which is to adopt a principled preference for buffs over nerfs in pursuit of balance. Of course the applications vary and I can't readily predict if such would fit our (well, Leoreth's hehe) design goals. Regardless, I'd just emphasize the phrase "principled preference" in order to not be misunderstood as advocating a straw-manny proposal like "always buff no matter what".

- Simulate the explosion in urban populations in the modern era.

PS I love this.