1.18 Civics Changes

[TsimTsigal]

This would hurt a lot. Personally I liked specialist rush.

In fact, you guys should also account that you now unlock this effect only in Renaissance Era instead of Ancient (!). This is a big nerf.

It got boosted a lot because you no longer lose from most improved tiles. Now you lose commerce instead, plus it no longer competes with unlimited happiness from Monarchy (essentially fulfilling deep dark fantasies about unlimited specialists) nor funni Despotism. Plus you still can stack Specialists "upgrades" like, say, Wat Preah upgrading Priests (which is where Specialist eco naturally draws power from). Isolationism is A LOT more powerful than Republic ever was.

However, i haven't checked if new Isolationism stacks with the Porcelain Tower (food from statesmen) or not. Probably its effect should be revised because China should run Isolationism.

 

[AOS9001]

I've been thinking, what if manorialism gave a bigger buff to farms but nerfed cottage growth rates the way conquest used to? Maybe not as badly as conquest, but enough so that it would incentivize the medieval Euros (and China) to avoid cottage spam early on, which could decrease the early crazy teching rates we've seen off and on as the civics are adjusted and AI behavior fixed. Then once they discover individualism, they can start the cottage spam (an abstract representation of the economic revolution in the 17th and 18th centuries, and a not so abstract representation of urbanization).

 

[spydama]

It got boosted a lot because you no longer lose from most improved tiles. Now you lose commerce instead, plus it no longer competes with unlimited happiness from Monarchy (essentially fulfilling deep dark fantasies about unlimited specialists) nor funni Despotism. Plus you still can stack Specialists "upgrades" like, say, Wat Preah upgrading Priests (which is where Specialist eco naturally draws power from). Isolationism is A LOT more powerful than Republic ever was.

However, i haven't checked if new Isolationism stacks with the Porcelain Tower (food from statesmen) or not. Probably its effect should be revised because China should run Isolationism.

In version 1.17, a patch was implemented to ensure that wonders providing food to specialists do not stack with civics that add food to specialists.
This stacking issue is also resolved in version 1.18.
I confirmed this while playing as Vietnam and building the Porcelain Tower.

 

[spydama]

It seems the AI still does not realize that Thalassocracy is inefficient for civilizations building Cottages.
I think the penalty of Thalassocracy starts affecting from Hamlet, not Cottage, which makes the AI build Cottages.
Honestly, I don’t know exactly how the AI in Civilization 4 is programmed...

Also, how is the AI France adopting the Reciprocity civic? I saw them adopting Redistribution a few turns ago.

 

[Dracosolon]

This would hurt a lot. Personally I liked specialist rush.

In fact, you guys should also account that you now unlock this effect only in Renaissance Era instead of Ancient (!). This is a big nerf.

Yeah, I'm not a fan of nerfing a specialist civic with a different specialist malus. Maybe Isolationism could have additional from population to make building super cities harder.

 

[Leoreth]

I've been thinking, what if manorialism gave a bigger buff to farms but nerfed cottage growth rates the way conquest used to? Maybe not as badly as conquest, but enough so that it would incentivize the medieval Euros (and China) to avoid cottage spam early on, which could decrease the early crazy teching rates we've seen off and on as the civics are adjusted and AI behavior fixed. Then once they discover individualism, they can start the cottage spam (an abstract representation of the economic revolution in the 17th and 18th centuries, and a not so abstract representation of urbanization).

I don't want cottage improvements to be "the early modern improvement" and I don't want Manorialism to be the "makes you backwards" civic.

In general the design of the civic system should not be approached with a certain goal of tech speed or civ balancing in mind. The civics should present an interesting and balanced set of choices in their own right. We can achieve balance for tech speed and various civilizations in other ways.

 

[Alexius08]

Noticed that I can't build Crystal Cathedral as secular America. Was the ability to build wonders that normally has state religion requirements removed from Secularism?

 

[Leoreth]

It was.

 

[AOS9001]

I don't want cottage improvements to be "the early modern improvement" and I don't want Manorialism to be the "makes you backwards" civic.

In general the design of the civic system should not be approached with a certain goal of tech speed or civ balancing in mind. The civics should present an interesting and balanced set of choices in their own right. We can achieve balance for tech speed and various civilizations in other ways.

That's fair. I just think it's strange to see France, England, and Germany carpeted in towns in the middle ages. I don't have a big sample size yet but when I try to play to the middle ages and build farms so I can get the most out of manorialism + vassalage, I think I fall significantly behind in the tech race. I'll keep playing with strategies and see what happens.

 

[roofitavio]

The Norse start with Vassalage, but lose it the next turn (presumably because it requires Feudalism, which they don't start with). Are they supposed to keep this civic?

Since this was updated, should mention that the same issue applies to the Nubians, the French, the Byzantines, the Japanese and the Moors in 600AD.
The Khmer have a similar issue where they have Citizenship/Monasticism but not Law/Ethics.

 

[Matara]

Specialist economy is extremely strong in late game with additional food and yield (Internet, etc.) So I believe it needs nerf. The historical logic is that international trade is much more important in modern economy, through migration, corporation spread, technology spillover etc. Isolation hurts in all of these ways and creates inefficiency like planned economy.

 

[SultanRedSnake]

I’ll have more to contribute as I play, but for now lemme just plead for Manoralism to be rescued.

 

[Hickman888]

I’ll have more to contribute as I play, but for now lemme just plead for Manoralism to be rescued.

Yes. I haven’t played any of the European civilizations yet, but playing as the Persians, that +2 hits you fast and hard. I think my size 4 capital was already unhealthy; Makes me want to immediately adopt Slavery.

 

[TsimTsigal]

Yes. I haven’t played any of the European civilizations yet, but playing as the Persians, that +2 hits you fast and hard. I think my size 4 capital was already unhealthy; Makes me want to immediately adopt Slavery.

I'd argue that Manoralism should be weak for ME civs to nudge them towards Islam-friendly Slavery - the problem is, however, that Zoroastrians get stabmalus rather than stabbonus from running it. Not that Middle East benefits from Farm and Pastures more than from Orchards, Plantations and Quarries, anyway.

I'd personally replace bonus with one for Farms. Embrace massive stinking medieval towns filled with priests and constantly mobilized levies!

Also whipping. Love whipping. Whatever buffs whipping has my approval.

 

[Dracosolon]

I don't think it would be right for medieval European cities to be big, nor have a synergy with Despotism over Monarchy.

If Manorialism was to receive a boost it would make sense to give it to other amenities of the feudal system beyond just the Farm. So maybe double production speed for Forge/Weaver/Estate, and maybe a minor boost to Windmills and/or Watermills. Though the latter improvements are in an odd position now and seems much more situational.

 

[AOS9001]

In vanilla Civ IV I never understood what the point of water wheels was. DOC made them situationally useful with certain civics, but they lost some of those bonuses with the new civics (meritocracy + central planning used to make them powerful). Why would I build these over farms and cottages now? That river tile real estate is valuable!

That being said, I do wish manorialism was more useful for its era. Plus one commerce on farms does not make them worth it over cottages in many cases, especially with the +2 unhealth (not that I’m against that, but I think there could be a stronger tradeoff).

 

[urbestfriend]

Yes. I haven’t played any of the European civilizations yet, but playing as the Persians, that +2 hits you fast and hard. I think my size 4 capital was already unhealthy; Makes me want to immediately adopt Slavery.

As Persia I went right to Caste System and never looked back. So many plantations to benefit from and my improvements were being pillaged a lot from raiders, plus you need to be building so much military for your early and midgame you don't really have the luxury of building a lot of workers.

 

[banzay13]

As Persia I went right to Caste System and never looked back. So many plantations to benefit from and my improvements were being pillaged a lot from raiders, plus you need to be building so much military for your early and midgame you don't really have the luxury of building a lot of workers.

Slavery first - to capture all workers you need. Then Caste system. With Aspadana palace - work perfect

 

[SultanRedSnake]

Don’t take my word for it, poll the AI (they ummm…do not like it). For this and other reasons they’ve been cooking up some civic combos that are truly original and equally cursed. At the very least it’d be fair to say that Europe has decided to cancel the Middle Ages.

 

[Osborneman]

Manorialism is excellent as Russia once your land is improved because you need farms to grow your cities since you have a lot of non-grassland tiles and not a ton of food resources. You also have tons of production for workers and baths.

The issue is there's no incentive to go into Manorialism if your land is unimproved. I think that right now the strategy for almost every civ is to start with Caste System until you've improved your land, then maybe switch to something else later.