11 cops vs. teen with a knife. You know where this is going.

Puck Nutty

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http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/201...otaped_shooting_recounts_harrowing_event.html

Markus Grupp’s Friday night started with drinks and dinner, and ended with him witnessing the fatal police shooting of 18-year-old Sammy Yatim on an empty 505 Dundas streetcar.
Grupp, 36, was walking home with his brother and his brother’s girlfriend just before midnight when the three found themselves in the midst of commotion on Dundas St. W. They had crossed Trinity Bellwoods Park and were headed east on Dundas towards the brother’s Bellwoods Ave. home, when they came upon a parked westbound streetcar.
“The lights were flashing,” said Grupp. “We saw a lot of people on the north side along the storefronts on Dundas, all kind of standing there. Some had their phones out, some were just standing there talking.”
The streetcar was empty save for a young man in the front seat on the right of the vehicle. The operator of the streetcar was “standing hunched over the controls,” according to Grupp, who was watching about three metres away from the front doors of the car.
Police officers are gathered outside a TTC streetcar on Dundas St. W. early Saturday in this still taken from a video shot on an iPhone by Markus Grupp of the altercation that left 18-year-old Sammy Yatim dead.
About 30 seconds later, “the operator jumped off and the fellow in the front right seat jumped up. The fellow was standing up — he was in plain view of the front right window. We saw him and we saw he was holding up a knife at that point.
“That’s when the police showed up,” said Grupp, who then took out his iPhone and started recording. “I started filming then, at 12:03.”
Grupp said, initially, there were three officers — two males and one female. Within seconds, several more cruisers arrived and officers surrounded the streetcar. Grupp estimates there were between eight and 11 officers around the car at that point.
In Grupp’s video, officers near the front doors of the streetcar can be heard shouting “Drop the knife!” at least half a dozen times. Yatim, the young man on the streetcar, can be heard retorting, “You’re a . You’re a f------ .” The officers, weapons drawn, shout back “Don’t move!” on two occasions. But mere seconds later, when Yatim appears to move, police fire three consecutive shots into the streetcar, followed by at least another six.
“We didn’t know if they were real bullets or not,” Grupp said. “We didn’t really think they were real bullets.” He added that it was unclear if the shots were fired by a single officer or if several discharged their firearms. “All we could see was their silhouettes so it was hard to tell.”
About 20 seconds after the shots were fired, an officer climbed into the streetcar and Grupp heard the sound of a Taser, as police continued to shout “Drop the knife!” Grupp’s video also shows one officer sprinting into the streetcar and towards Yatim.
“We saw one of the officers go in the back door, putting on gloves,” Grupp said. “He was hidden below the waist but it looked like, at one point, there was a kicking motion, interpreting from his upper body motions.”
“Then a bunch of officers went to the front. One officer went below the window, kind of crouched down below the window,” he said, adding that the officer seemed to be performing CPR on the victim.
About two minutes after the first shots were fired, police began cordoning off the area. Grupp was giving his statement to a police officer, when another officer came up and told his colleague to “shut it down.” Toronto Fire arrived on the scene but Grupp says he doesn’t recall if he saw Emergency Medical Services personnel boarding the streetcar while he was speaking with police. But, according to Grupp’s recollection, Yatim’s body was still on the streetcar when he left the scene at about 12:35 a.m.

Big protest today in Toronto, right in the heart of downtown.

Personally, I don't have a problem with cops shooting someone with a knife provided there is a legitimate threat to someone's life. However, I have a hard time imagining a scenario where one man with a knife needs to be shot when there are over a half dozen cops with Tasers on the scene.

Now, 9 shots? Plus a tase for good measure? This is 5 kinds of messed up.
 
How could they know he wasn't trained by the League of Shadows?
 
I think I can finally understand the rather hostile attitude of some towards cops, especially if one keeps hearing about such incidents.
 
I thought the kid was going to stand his ground and kill all 11 cops. Now that would have been a story.
 
Maybe people shouldn't wave knives at cops and behave in a generally threatening manner while armed with a deadly weapon. Maybe then they wouldn't get killed. Maybe.
 
Maybe people shouldn't wave knives at cops and behave in a generally threatening manner while armed with a deadly weapon. Maybe then they wouldn't get killed. Maybe.

Perhaps there are some mentally disturbed people out there who can't help it.
 
Perhaps there are some mentally disturbed people out there who can't help it.

What is this supposed to imply? That people with mental illness should be exempt from the law and permitted to do this?

I'm all for therapy, rehabilitation, and being a compassionate person, but no level of mental illness or likewise, sanity, justifies being allowed to continue being a significant danger. I very highly doubt that the street car was empty and the operator ran out because everyone suddenly decided walking home was better for their health than using the TTC.

The facts are simple: There was an armed man in a closed space that had the potential of multiple fatalities, he refused to drop his weapon, he refused to remain still, and began to erratically move. You can have as many cops as you want but it's a high stress situation with a dangerous man. Your unwillingness to pull the trigger could get more people than just the armed criminal killed.

As far as I know, long distance tasers are not used here in Ontario, and they are all close proximity. It would have been impossible to get close enough to detain him as long as he was armed. Unless you were to suggest surrounding him and having one of the police officers "take one for the team" and get a knife in the gut so the others can move in?

If the police officers had access to long range tasers, I would agree with the people saying that they should not have fired. However, if they did not, they weren't exactly swimming in options that involved none or only one fatality: the person breaking the law.
 
The facts are simple: There was an armed man in a closed space that had the potential of multiple fatalities, he refused to drop his weapon, he refused to remain still, and began to erratically move. You can have as many cops as you want but it's a high stress situation with a dangerous man. Your unwillingness to pull the trigger could get more people than just the armed criminal killed.

For the record, we're talking about 1 guy, armed with a knife, alone and contained in a streetcar. All the police had to do was back up about 10 feet and they'd have been pretty much completely safe. Then you can at least talk to the guy before you start shooting.
 
History_Buff said:
For the record, we're talking about 1 guy, armed with a knife, alone and contained in a streetcar. All the police had to do was back up about 10 feet and they'd have been pretty much completely safe. Then you can at least talk to the guy before you start shooting.
Yeah, that would have been the sensible approach. At that point you could have called in his family and some medical personnel and attempted to talk him down.
 
I thought the kid was going to stand his ground and kill all 11 cops. Now that would have been a story.

They've already made that story. It's called Assassin's Creed.
 
For the record, we're talking about 1 guy, armed with a knife, alone and contained in a streetcar. All the police had to do was back up about 10 feet and they'd have been pretty much completely safe. Then you can at least talk to the guy before you start shooting.
Yeah. If the story in the OP does not omit any relevant details the witness may have overlooked... Would a dozen cops really repeatedly shoot a guy who was in no position to be an actual threat to anyone? If so, that is simply a murder.
They've already made that story. It's called Assassin's Creed.
:lol::goodjob:
 
Yeah. If the story in the OP does not omit any relevant details the witness may have overlooked... Would a dozen cops really repeatedly shoot a guy who was in no position to be an actual threat to anyone? If so, that is simply a murder.

:lol::goodjob:
Pretty much. He clearly needed to be arrested, but unless there is something being omitted from the OP's story he certainly didn't need to be shot.
 
What is this supposed to imply? That people with mental illness should be exempt from the law and permitted to do this?

I'm all for therapy, rehabilitation, and being a compassionate person, but no level of mental illness or likewise, sanity, justifies being allowed to continue being a significant danger. I very highly doubt that the street car was empty and the operator ran out because everyone suddenly decided walking home was better for their health than using the TTC.

The facts are simple: There was an armed man in a closed space that had the potential of multiple fatalities, he refused to drop his weapon, he refused to remain still, and began to erratically move. You can have as many cops as you want but it's a high stress situation with a dangerous man. Your unwillingness to pull the trigger could get more people than just the armed criminal killed.

As far as I know, long distance tasers are not used here in Ontario, and they are all close proximity. It would have been impossible to get close enough to detain him as long as he was armed. Unless you were to suggest surrounding him and having one of the police officers "take one for the team" and get a knife in the gut so the others can move in?

If the police officers had access to long range tasers, I would agree with the people saying that they should not have fired. However, if they did not, they weren't exactly swimming in options that involved none or only one fatality: the person breaking the law.

I have to second basically this entire post. We can play monday morning quarterback all day about the wisdom of cops confronting a potentially-unstable guy with a knife, but if he makes a move towards the cop while holding the knife I can't say I fault the cop for pulling the trigger.

This isn't rock, paper, scissors where [gun > knife] and the police aren't allowed to defend themselves.
 
You know, if the police are going to place the priority on defending themselves, gun control opponents start making a lot more sense.
 
For the record, we're talking about 1 guy, armed with a knife, alone and contained in a streetcar. All the police had to do was back up about 10 feet and they'd have been pretty much completely safe. Then you can at least talk to the guy before you start shooting.

But it's cool to imply that everyone that gets wasted by law enforcement had it coming.

You know, if the police are going to place the priority on defending themselves, gun control opponents start making a lot more sense.

That's pretty accurate unfortunately. I don't want peace troopers whose first thought is "kill anything that might hurt me" rather than how to protect and serve, and yes, service is due even to those who need arrested. But it's cool to play off life as being cheap.
 
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