11 cops vs. teen with a knife. You know where this is going.

[aelf]

Maybe people shouldn't wave knives at cops and behave in a generally threatening manner while armed with a deadly weapon. Maybe then they wouldn't get killed. Maybe.

Maybe people shouldn't be scantily dressed and behave in a generally seductive manner. Maybe then they wouldn't be raped. Maybe.

Default victim blaming is fun!

 

[Borachio]

There is, though, a categorical difference between threatening behaviour with a flowery summer dress, and a sexily waved knife.

 

[Farm Boy]

There is, though, a categorical difference between threatening behaviour with a flowery summer dress, and a sexily waved knife.

As in, if you do either while alone in the passenger seat of a car one could reasonably be expected to get you whistled at or an offer for a date while the other could reasonably be expected to get you arrested. Forcibly violated by either penises or bullets should be considered out of the ordinary for both, but depressingly enough I'm not sure either really is.

 

[aelf]

There is, though, a categorical difference between threatening behaviour with a flowery summer dress, and a sexily waved knife.

St Augustine believed that men couldn't help getting excited over a scantily dressed woman. I suppose the special breed called cops couldn't help it as well at the sight of a raised knife that is not necessarily near them.

 

[warpus]

This should have been obviously handled with a taser fired from a remotely controlled drone.

But seriously,

1. I am not convinced that these cops were fully sensible in terms of the approach they used
2. The guy shouldn't have been waving that knife around. He got himself killed

Idiocy all around

 

[Borachio]

I tend to agree with you, aelf. Which is why a routinely armed police force may not be such a good idea. Give a man a gun and inevitably he is going to want to shoot someone with it.

 

[Formaldehyde]

I think I can finally understand the rather hostile attitude of some towards cops, especially if one keeps hearing about such incidents.

It is more like a vehement disagreement with the hostile attitudes of some cops.

Studies conducted by criminologists have indicated that roughly one-third of police shootings in Canada that resulted in death or injury involved people either diagnosed or suspected of mental illness.

We don’t kill crazy people, do we? Well, I guess we do, or cops do, and they rationalize it as an appropriate response to a threat. After-fact review routinely agrees with those decisions.

But the world is changing. An officer’s word need no longer be the determining factor. There are eyes-on everywhere, and ubiquitous gadgetry to record what’s in dispute.

Coroner’s inquests have been held, over and over, at least 10 probes of fatal shootings by police in Toronto over the past two decades: Lester Donaldson, Edmund Yu, Wayne Williams, Reyal Jardine-Douglas, Sylvia Klibingaitis, Michael Eligon, Byron Debassige, Otto Vass — the names of the dead go on and on, purported menaces to the public and police, whether wielding a paring knife or a pair of scissors but really armed with little more beyond the paranoia in their head and irrational behaviour exhibited.

The coroner’s recommendations are inevitably the same: better training for officers, better access to treatment when people are in mental crisis, intercession before a situation erupts in lethal firepower — such as the mobile crisis intervention teams that have been created for some Toronto police divisions, incorporating a plainclothes officer and a psychiatric nurse.

 

[civver_764]

I've got an anecdote about the police I'd like to share, if you find it annoying or irrelevant to the thread feel free to ignore.

The cops came to house last month because there were lots of underage kids here drinking. They arrested like 10 of us, brought five police cars to my street, had a bunch of juveniles sitting in handcuffs on my front lawn for hours, kicked my door down, tore apart my house searching for drugs, brought me from my bed to the drunk tank all night because I had alcohol in my system(almost causing me to be late for work the next day). And now they're bringing me to court on two charges.

All they found were some empty beer cans. They didn't even find marijuana, and certainly not any weapons. Nobody was hurt or in any danger until the police showed up.

And just last week, one of my friends who was also arrested that night was exiting a gas station and it took him 30 seconds before he turned his headlights on. There a police car that followed him all the way to this house before turning on their flashing lights and pulling him over. They recognized him and ended up getting a dog to come sniff the car. The dog didn't signal until the police officer did that trick to make them do so. Then they towed his car and he had to pay $250. They didn't find any drugs or weapons in his car at all. All for not having his headlights on.

 

[Borachio]

What are the two charges?

 

[ParkCungHee]

I tend to agree with you, aelf. Which is why a routinely armed police force may not be such a good idea. Give a man a gun and inevitably he is going to want to shoot someone with it.

Why is it that legitimate Fascists can understand this is a principle of good policing, but our government can't?

 

[Farm Boy]

I've got an anecdote about the police I'd like to share, if you find it annoying or irrelevant to the thread feel free to ignore.

The cops came to house last month because there were lots of underage kids here drinking. They arrested like 10 of us, brought five police cars to my street, had a bunch of juveniles sitting in handcuffs on my front lawn for hours, kicked my door down, tore apart my house searching for drugs, brought me from my bed to the drunk tank all night because I had alcohol in my system(almost causing me to be late for work the next day). And now they're bringing me to court on two charges.

All they found were some empty beer cans. They didn't even find marijuana, and certainly not any weapons. Nobody was hurt or in any danger until the police showed up.

And just last week, one of my friends who was also arrested that night was exiting a gas station and it took him 30 seconds before he turned his headlights on. There a police car that followed him all the way to this house before turning on their flashing lights and pulling him over. They recognized him and ended up getting a dog to come sniff the car. The dog didn't signal until the police officer did that trick to make them do so. Then they towed his car and he had to pay $250. They didn't find any drugs or weapons in his car at all. All for not having his headlights on.

Well, you/he are in the system now. Basically you need to consider your 4th Amendment rights functionally void and any and all private property subject to arbitrary seizure.

 

[Borachio]

That's a hard question, PCH.

What's the answer?

 

[Azale]

I've got an anecdote about the police I'd like to share, if you find it annoying or irrelevant to the thread feel free to ignore.

The cops came to house last month because there were lots of underage kids here drinking. They arrested like 10 of us, brought five police cars to my street, had a bunch of juveniles sitting in handcuffs on my front lawn for hours, kicked my door down, tore apart my house searching for drugs, brought me from my bed to the drunk tank all night because I had alcohol in my system(almost causing me to be late for work the next day). And now they're bringing me to court on two charges.

All they found were some empty beer cans. They didn't even find marijuana, and certainly not any weapons. Nobody was hurt or in any danger until the police showed up.

 

[ParkCungHee]

That's a hard question, PCH.

What's the answer?

Because Eoin O'Duffy had the good sense to build a respectable police force first, and become a fascist later.

 

[Borachio]

So, is the corollary that those whose police forces are less than respectable are not likely to be fascists?

 

[SS-18 ICBM]

It is more like a vehement disagreement with the hostile attitudes of some cops.

Some comments I read don't have that qualifier though.

 

[Formaldehyde]

There were likely only one or two cops who fired those nine shots. But I bet this will be summarily dismissed as being within the bounds of the official police policy. It would seem that those "some" frequently have positions of power and influence. That they really see nothing wrong with what occurred here. That the even the slightest potential of a cop being hurt or killed is sufficient to make this decision.

 

[Azale]

Some comments I read don't have that qualifier though.

At some point, there is systemic decay that I don't feel the need to tiptoe around by saying "some cops ok doe" every time I bring up the subject.

 

[bhsup]

Maybe people shouldn't be scantily dressed and behave in a generally seductive manner. Maybe then they wouldn't be raped. Maybe.

Default victim blaming is fun!

Yes, because those two situations are so close to being identical, I cannot fathom why I didn't use your example the first time around.

Oh wait, I do know why. Because it's a ing stupid comparison. You should really be embarrassed for even using it.

 

[Farm Boy]

Yes, because those two situations are so close to being identical, I cannot fathom why I didn't use your example the first time around.

Oh wait, I do know why. Because it's a ing stupid comparison. You should really be embarrassed for even using it.

Look at it this way. If a woman wandered around naked in a residential area in St. Louis you would expect her to be arrested. Expecting her to be raped is too much, but acknowledgement that we live in a wicked world may force us to admit that doing so increases her likelihood of suffering this fate. Nonetheless we must decry the situation should she be raped.

If a dude wanders around behaving erratically with a knife and is on an empty railcar while not attempting to move it while contained in place by ~10 armed police officers you would expect him to be arrested. Expecting him, in this situation where he is unlikely to be able to actually harm, much less kill anyone while exhibiting present behavior, to be killed is too much but acknowledgement that we live in a wicked world may force us to admit that his doing so increases his likelihood of suffering this fate. Nonetheless we must decry the situation should he be killed.

Are you actually willing to argue that the ramp up here to dead rather than raped is less significant or more "earned?" Are we sliding the scale of justifying the use of deadly force around to make it more forgiving than in "imminent danger" or depending on the status of employment by the government? That acting belligerent and weird and possibly harmful at a point in the near future is creepy enough to warrant dead? If I act effed up I always have a pocketknife on me, how close am I to being potentially dead if say, drunk and confronted by police?

If I discount perceived notions of chivalry being pressed awkwardly into service on the subject of sexual violence against women, I have to say that while I don't like it, Aelf's comparison is rather less egregious than what appears to be the occurrence in this homicide's case.