2 Workers before a Settler

[krikav]

Can agree with alot of that.
In games where I go for pyramids, I tend to build _alot_ of workers to get them built quick. (Don't like the idea of a lengthy pyramids-build, as the first few hammers get locked in such a long time). So I usually have workerturn-surplus both just before the choppingspree and after the build, and it almost always result in a comfortable and efficient game.

 

[sampsa]

However, a fact is that a connected 2nd city gains a lot more raw yield than growing capital does (well, unless capital has say 4 excellent tiles, like double pigs + double gold). Recent NC Mao is a good example.

 

[Fippy]

Shakabrade makes an important point about "worker snowballing", if we have another one sooner we might need less "later",
which indirectly also creates hammers that can be compared to what an earlier 2nd city gives.

So i still agree with you Sampsa that i build a settler first more often, but i probably have to disagree with 2nd cities automatically gaining more raw yield (early 2nd worker can count as 60h saved soon).
But if settler whipping (Mao example) creates that worker not much later, we are back to settler first winning.

 

[sampsa]

OK. So we are back to chopping infinite forests I suppose. If there is snowballing from earlier worker there is also snowballing from earlier 2nd city. In the Mao game in question (edit: realized we talk about different Mao games , this comment is in regards to NC Mao), settling 2nd city to work unimproved floodplain earns 322 per turn, which is not easy to beat. Of course, we don't always have a juicy 2nd spot available.

but i probably have to disagree with 2nd cities automatically gaining more raw yield (early 2nd worker can count as 60h saved soon).

I'm a bit tired now, but I think the part in parenthesis has a logical flaw. If early 2nd worker counts as 60h saved soon, then early 2nd city must count as 100h saved soon.

 

[shakabrade]

However, a fact is that a connected 2nd city gains a lot more raw yield than growing capital does (well, unless capital has say 4 excellent tiles, like double pigs + double gold). Recent NC Mao is a good example.

Almost any whippable capital (2 land food sources, maybe some early happiness near) does not need to fear double worker opening to be crippling. Yes, yield-wise there can be some better maths, but if we put value on the increase in flexibility and generally better efficiency with earlier workers, earlier roads, etc., it becomes very hard to evaluate how it translates into a win, but it is easy to see how extra safety due to ability to burst produce with chops can save the game from barbs.

I looked at the NC game, and due to very slow starting capital, I'd also go for settler before 2nd worker, especially because it is not many worker turns to connect it.

What I like in some general case. Faster capital with 6 tiles, 5 can work too will produce both the workers and settlers faster than NC Mao map. You set the capital for whipping with 2 workers, whip the settler and soon hit the happy cap but you don't care as your 2nd or 3rd city will share 6 tile and whip their own stuff. You start whipping and using that unhappiness timer sooner, which is also a resource of its own, especially if no early happiness is around. This is often how my starts looked like. Ok food, bad happiness (as I selectively declined gold/gems starts).

The main message, from my view of mediocre microer having played dominantly on partially handicapped Standard/Medium_sea_level/Fractal Deity, is that double worker is sometimes good on Standard/Medium_sea_level/Fractal Deity. So, the settings normalized answer is - depends.

 

[sampsa]

Almost any whippable capital (2 land food sources, maybe some early happiness near) does not need to fear double worker opening to be crippling.

Oh absolutely not, I'm simply interested on if it is better than the alternatives.

Yes, yield-wise there can be some better maths, but if we put value on the increase in flexibility and generally better efficiency with earlier workers, earlier roads, etc., it becomes very hard to evaluate how it translates into a win, but it is easy to see how extra safety due to ability to burst produce with chops can save the game from barbs.

I understand. The timing of settling the 2nd city is roughly at the same time when barbs start to enter our borders, which is indeed something you need to take care of.

What I like in some general case. Faster capital with 6 tiles, 5 can work too will produce both the workers and settlers faster than NC Mao map. You set the capital for whipping with 2 workers, whip the settler and soon hit the happy cap but you don't care as your 2nd or 3rd city will share 6 tile and whip their own stuff. You start whipping and using that unhappiness timer sooner, which is also a resource of its own, especially if no early happiness is around.

Agreed.

 

[shakabrade]

If there is snowballing from earlier worker there is also snowballing from earlier 2nd city.

Totally right. What early 2nd city cannot do is early burst production needed for e.g. defenders and fogbusters, compared to chopping workers, until it is set up for whipping. And it takes a while until you can whip it plus building a settler is a bit longer, one chop longer. Definitely depends on the quality of 2nd city though.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

I've lost many city twos a couple of turns before they could whip a warrior