2010 Winter Olympics

[Winner]

If that happened, who would you root for?

 

[Orange Seeds]

Too bad we've been hearing that for the past 20 years and it didn't happen

Finland, Czechia, Slovakia and other smaller nations are more vulnerable to the cyclic "generation exchange" because their "manpower pool" is limited. But given the popularity of ice hockey in the Czech Rep. (and Slovakia to somewhat lesser extent), I simply don't see how could they possibly fall below the "lesser" hockey nations.

If there's one country that can enter the "elite club" in hockey, it's perhaps Belarus. I'd like Switzerland to get there, but unless they stop playing defensively all the time, they just won't.



Whatever, you're simply wrong at this point.

I used the expertise Edit to give more credence to my claim that Swiss players weren't as skilled, not about the logistics of Czech hockey. For that, one just needs to look at some names:

There does not seem to be a new generation developing to replace the old generation.
Elias, Hamrlik, Hejduk, Kaberle, Rozsival, Vokoun, Zidlicky are all in their mid-30s and past their prime.
Havlat, Erat, Hemsky are in their late 20s.
Hasek, Jagr, Nedved are all retired or retiring.

The lone hope of the Czech Republic is 23 year old David Krejci.
Frolik and Michalek also warrant some attention.
Since the lockout there have been a total of 3 Czech first round picks. There were three alone in 2004 but 2 of them never made an NHL team. The other was ladislav Smid. So of the top 150 young players and prospects in the NHL, 3 are Czech. There are also none projected to be selected in this year's first round(yet there is a very talented Swiss player). Obviously, 1st round picks can be busts and later round picks can turn out promising, but they are still a good indication of high end young talent.

The situation in Slovakia is even worse.

I don't think you understand what bottom means sure it's not one of the 6-7 elite nations, but it's right there after those

In hockey, not being one of the top 6-7 nations means you are at the bottom. I've argued all along that there is still a wide gap between #6 and 7(Czech Republic/Slovakia/Finland) and the Swiss. A Wide gap, that I agree is narrowing. when the Swiss play either one of those above teams and gets typically outshot 40-15 you'll see what i mean. You can see by looking at the Norway game that when the Swiss don't play with a strict 4-man trap, they don't look very good.

 

[warpus]

If that happened, who would you root for?

In a Canada vs Poland final? Poland Canada already has a slew of medals, I'd go for the underdog.

 

[Winner]

I used the expertise Edit to give more credence to my claim that Swiss players weren't as skilled, not about the logistics of Czech hockey. For that, one just needs to look at some names:

There does not seem to be a new generation developing to replace the old generation.
Elias, Hamrlik, Hejduk, Kaberle, Rozsival, Vokoun, Zidlicky are all in their mid-30s and past their prime.
Havlat, Erat, Hemsky are in their late 20s.
Hasek, Jagr, Nedved are all retired or retiring.

The lone hope of the Czech Republic is 23 year old David Krejci.
Frolik and Michalek also warrant some attention.
Since the lockout there have been a total of 3 Czech first round picks. There were three alone in 2004 but 2 of them never made an NHL team. The other was ladislav Smid. So of the top 150 young players and prospects in the NHL, 3 are Czech. There are also none projected to be selected in this year's first round(yet there is a very talented Swiss player). Obviously, 1st round picks can be busts and later round picks can turn out promising, but they are still a good indication of high end young talent.

The situation in Slovakia is even worse.

Yes, this way of looking at hockey is pretty common in North America (and by that I mean mostly Canada) - it's all about big names and the NHL. Nothing else matters. There is nothing going on in the rest of the world.

I respectfully disagree.

In a Canada vs Poland final? Poland Canada already has a slew of medals, I'd go for the underdog.

You would probably lose your citizenship in Canada

 

[Grisu]

yet there is a very talented Swiss player

so do you think Niederreiter's gonna get picked in first round? The swiss media seem to take it for guaranteed, but then they might be a tad biased

In hockey, not being one of the top 6-7 nations means you are at the bottom. I've argued all along that there is still a wide gap between #6 and 7(Czech Republic/Slovakia/Finland) and the Swiss. A Wide gap, that I agree is narrowing. when the Swiss play either one of those above teams and gets typically outshot 40-15 you'll see what i mean. You can see by looking at the Norway game that when the Swiss don't play with a strict 4-man trap, they don't look very good.

well we'l just have to agree to disagree on that then, I'd call bottom at the very least to be the elevator teams and those under threat of relegation, such as Italy, France, Austria, etc.

as far as the outshooting goes...switzerland pretty much outshot norway too...it was just that our defense sucked terribly there (and hiller didn't have a good day)

If there's one country that can enter the "elite club" in hockey, it's perhaps Belarus. I'd like Switzerland to get there, but unless they stop playing defensively all the time, they just won't.

err..Belarus plays every bit as defensively as Switzerland

oh..and horrible start for hiller...that shouldn't even have been a chance Ok, they managed to tie it again...outshooting Belarus 16-7 in the first, but failing to score more than that one goal so far

 

[SuperBeaverInc.]

so do you think Niederreiter's gonna get picked in first round? The swiss media seem to take it for guaranteed, but then they might be a tad biased

I remember during the World Juniors, all the commentators pretty well agreed that he was potentially a top 10 pick after his performance there.

 

[warpus]

Isn't there some sort of country by country ranking for international hockey teams? FIFA has one for soccer - it's not very accurate once you look at the details, but it does provide a good general overview of who is good and who isn't.

@Winner, if your country isn't producing nearly as many stars, how is it going to keep up in the future?

 

[Grisu]

Isn't there some sort of country by country ranking for international hockey teams? FIFA has one for soccer - it's not very accurate once you look at the details, but it does provide a good general overview of who is good and who isn't

there is the official IIHF ranking, but it's probably as accurate as the FIFA ranking:

world ranking


edit: in other news. the giant slalom is going to be very tight with 5 skiiers very close together before the second run (and too many of them austrians)

 

[Grisu]

Janka wins Gold at the giant slalom

 

[Winner]

@Winner, if your country isn't producing nearly as many stars, how is it going to keep up in the future?

Mmm, we somehow managed to keep up even under communism, so I don't think it's going to be worse than that in the future. We'll see

 

[Grisu]

oh my, that was closer than is comfortable

3-2 after penalty shootout

anyway....next for a rematch against the US

 

[holy king]

Janka wins Gold at the giant slalom

ah, goddammit.

 

[Orange Seeds]

so do you think Niederreiter's gonna get picked in first round? The swiss media seem to take it for guaranteed, but then they might be a tad biased

Niederreiter is definitely a first round pick. He has an outside shot at being in the top ten. Look for him to go between #9 and #15 overall. GMs tend to like to take young players from emerging hockey nations because they think it will build their teams image there. If NHL scouts know something we don't, he might drop down to the mid 20s.

Yes, this way of looking at hockey is pretty common in North America (and by that I mean mostly Canada) - it's all about big names and the NHL. Nothing else matters. There is nothing going on in the rest of the world.

I respectfully disagree.

We had this discussion earlier in the thread. You can disagree all you want but you're plain wrong until you give some reasons for your anti-intuitive position. The NHL has the best players in the world with few exceptions. If your country's players cannot make it into the NHL, then you are a worse hockey nation than those whose players can.

 

[SuperBeaverInc.]

Niederreiter is definitely a first round pick. He has an outside shot at being in the top ten. Look for him to go between #9 and #15 overall. GMs tend to like to take young players from emerging hockey nations because they think it will build their teams image there. If NHL scouts know something we don't, he might drop down to the mid 20s.

Didn't the opposite happen with Kopitar? I remember he dropped down a few spots despite being ranked highly.

 

[El Koeno]

Anyone see Dutch national hero Sven Kramer screw up? (Or are the Dutch the only ones actually watching speed skating? ) Rode the fastest 10km by far, only to be disqualified for inproperly switching lanes. Ouch.... I mean even though I think he's a bit arrogant, and I do not mind the Korean guy who's got the gold now winning, I really do feel bad for Kramer. It's a lousy way to lose...

 

[Orange Seeds]

Didn't the opposite happen with Kopitar? I remember he dropped down a few spots despite being ranked highly.

I don't actually know.

My research tells me that you might be right. He was ranked by NHL head scouting as the #1 European prospect in his draft and was taken as the first European player in that draft. Bob Mackenzie of TSN had him at 5th overall heading into the draft. He was taken 11th(as all Canuck fans know...).

I was thinking more about Danes, Austrians and US college players as per my experience with the Canucks.

 

[sysyphus]

Usually I enjoy International hockey more than that circus crap better known as the NHL, but I see that this time around they've included that awful horn-on-every-goal thing the NHL does.

It's really tacky.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Anyone see Dutch national hero Sven Kramer screw up? (Or are the Dutch the only ones actually watching speed skating? ) Rode the fastest 10km by far, only to be disqualified for inproperly switching lanes. Ouch.... I mean even though I think he's a bit arrogant, and I do not mind the Korean guy who's got the gold now winning, I really do feel bad for Kramer. It's a lousy way to lose...

It was his coach who screwed the pooch.

 

[SuperBeaverInc.]

Watching Latvia-Czech Republic. What a game! 2-2 in overtime.

 

[Winner]

We had this discussion earlier in the thread. You can disagree all you want but you're plain wrong until you give some reasons for your anti-intuitive position. The NHL has the best players in the world with few exceptions. If your country's players cannot make it into the NHL, then you are a worse hockey nation than those whose players can.

Ok, I take back the "respectfully" part. You're just another of those guys who sees ice hockey as a function of two things - the number of NHL stars playing on each team and... oh wait, no, that's it, there's nothing else

Like that worked so well for the Russians in the 1990s I remember how they kept loosing time and again despite having something close to an NHL all-star team.

There are things like team spirit, chemistry between players, sheer determination and hard work, which also play a role. And there are schools of hockey very different from the kind of game that's being played in NHL. So, my "anti-intuititve" position is in fact just an expression of hope that these things will continue to remain important in the future. Because if they didn't, what point would there be in watching hockey?