2nd attempt; space armarda

[A Viking Yeti]

TO SOG: I don't see how, considering the aforesaid intense G-force problem (we're already considering automating fighters due to the G's they edure). What todays fighter pilots endure wouldn't be much compared to the speed at which space fighters would fly and the weaponary that would be used in that sort of enviornment.

 

[WildWeazel]

Fighters would be short-range craft, carried on a mothership on long journeys, so they wouldn't need to fly very fast (in space terms). They would only have to pull high G's during close combat, like our pilots, and a zero-g environment might lessen the strain (?)
That is, unless SM implements them as interplanetary craft.

(2 posts from avatar...)

 

[Smoking mirror]

Actualy, long term exposure to zero-G only exacerbates the problems experienced by fighter pilots, as even small amounts of G-forces can feel unbearable after a while.

The problems with spacefighters result from the strains of new technologies outpacing the limits of the human body. As fighter plane technology stands at the moment, it is pushing the limits of human technology, while the human body is becoming less nececary to the functioning of the fighter plane because of improved targeting systems. Even now unstealthed fighter planes will avoid areas with high levels of SAM defence, so imagine what would happen when missiles can travel ten times the speed of a human piloted plane, and acheive turns ten times as sharp.

TV shows and films always feature space fighters, cos lets face it, they're great. But in reality there are large gaps of any space based tech development where space fighters would be useless. There will be fighters in the mod, but only in parts; one of the first units available will be a fighter swarm, while later techs will make the wormhole fighter an important part of any space fleet, able to zip in and out of the battle causing great disruption while remaining safe from harm.

I'm working on the settler shuttle at the moment, Been looking at space plane designs all afternoon. Anyone seen the Comercial space plane project Spaceshipone? aparently its the closest design to winning the X-prize (10 million dollars for being the first comercial craft in orbit). Its wierd, looks like Flash Gordons rocket ship! I think I'll use a similar design for the American UU space-fighter;

 

[A Viking Yeti]

TO SM: I did see that on the news some time, looks cool.

TO WWWeasel: Although they wouldn't fly fast 'cept in combat (and even then, it wouldn't be fast in "space-terms"), it's the turning and accelerating that causes G's. And as technology got better and better, ships would be able to move fast and turn quicker. This would obviously be an advantage in battle, but humans would black-out/die (under sufficient G's). Right now humans are reaching the limit of their physical capabilities (I saw on one show, a man flying a plan -not even a jet- dives, pulls up, and managed about 9 G's; supprisingly he stayed concious, whereas the average person balcks-out at 6. Like SM said, these ships will be able to acheive many times these speeds, so human fighter pilots are not an option).

 

[waldoa]

Great Mod idea

 

[Sword_Of_Geddon]

TO SM: I did see that on the news some time, looks cool.

TO WWWeasel: Although they wouldn't fly fast 'cept in combat (and even then, it wouldn't be fast in "space-terms"), it's the turning and accelerating that causes G's. And as technology got better and better, ships would be able to move fast and turn quicker. This would obviously be an advantage in battle, but humans would black-out/die (under sufficient G's). Right now humans are reaching the limit of their physical capabilities (I saw on one show, a man flying a plan -not even a jet- dives, pulls up, and managed about 9 G's; supprisingly he stayed concious, whereas the average person balcks-out at 6. Like SM said, these ships will be able to acheive many times these speeds, so human fighter pilots are not an option).

You also must take into account that technology that reduces or nullififys Gs are possible. So I wouldn't say Human-Piloted Starfighters are totally unrelestic.

Your speaking of the Predator and Global Hawk surveilance Drones right? Those are stilled manned, just by remote rather than a cockpit. A Human pressence in Aircraft, in the cockpit or by remote will always exist. Remotes aren't as relyable as a pilot is BTW....since remotes require a Satilite Connection...and believe me when I say that DSL isn't 100% relyable(I'd laugh if someone said it was)

 

[A Viking Yeti]

You also must take into account that technology that reduces or nullififys Gs are possible. So I wouldn't say Human-Piloted Starfighters are totally unrelestic.

Your speaking of the Predator and Global Hawk surveilance Drones right? Those are stilled manned, just by remote rather than a cockpit. A Human pressence in Aircraft, in the cockpit or by remote will always exist. Remotes aren't as relyable as a pilot is BTW....since remotes require a Satilite Connection...and believe me when I say that DSL isn't 100% relyable(I'd laugh if someone said it was)

G diffusers are possible, but probably a ways away (whereas faster space flight technology is already plausible, just no one's worked out the details and taken the initiative)... Also, I don't think that a human pressance will always exist (even if G diffusers were just around the proverbial corner), as on-board, computer controled AI would be more effecient (maybe not as good as a pilot, but remotec-controled fighters would require 1 pilot for every fighter, whereas drones would only need maitnence)...

I don't think physically-piloted space-fighters are completely unrealistic, just that their role in combat will diminish signifgantly as the speed, acceleration, and turning speed of fighters increase (though there will be plenty of openings for crew-members on the large, slower ships, that don't have any need to make these quick changes in speed/direction), until G diffusers become plausible...

As for the DSL idea, I never said DSL was reliable ... But at such high speeds, neither would a pilot (i.e. remote ship loses contact, while manned-ship kills its pilot from excessive strain). That's why on-board AI would help a lot (or maybe they'd just go over to missle/anti-missle warfare, and drop the fighter concept completely, who knows? It may be cheaper)...

 

[Sword_Of_Geddon]

Missiles are more expensive in some ways than Fighters, and Vise Versa.

Well...lets just put it this way.....Would you want an AI controlled Starfighter to malfunction(or if its true AI), rebel and decide its not going to take orders from us filthy organics? Besides, if true AI ever appeared, forcing it to possibly go to its doom as a Starfighter would be slavery. Is it saving lives then I wonder?

 

[Smoking mirror]

Theres a difference between AI (artificial inteligence) and SI (sentient intelligence), special programing resrictions can stop an AI becoming sentient through resricting its growth. Who knows, perhaps a SI would enjoy being a starfighter? I supose it could always "bail out" by downloading itself to saftey via a nearby satelite link, which is more than could be said of a human.

Fighter planes are only less expensive than missiles if you don't expect to lose any of them, in an equal tech-resource level war, missiles would always be used first. In the mod at the begining fighters and missiles will both be available, it'll be up to the player which is more usefull for thier present needs. Star fighters will have a HP bonus so will remain usefull for some time, as you can use them to "swarm" enemy targets with better stats, they will also be less vunerable to powerfull defensive bombardments.

 

[A Viking Yeti]

Those are some weird ideas (about the downloading and all that)... "Oh no, only half of little billy was downloaded!"

I wasn't really talking about a self-evolving nueral-net, just a basic program to determine what strategy, flight path, speed, etc would be best to pursue a program (like an advanced gaming program, and honestly I feel no remorse shooting down a fighter in Ace Combat 4)... SI would be a bad idea, since (like SOG said) the computer(s) might think it more profitable to rebel, or try to stay nuetral (i.e. the development of self preservation influences in their programming would not be good for a starfighter)...

Although, malfunctioning would be a problem... "Illegal Operation' termination Starfighter.exe", and then it coasts off into oblivion . Not a good scenario. I'm guessing a starfighter wouldn't be very cheap. Or if it was just a small error, maybe with weighting the situation at hand (i.e. cost of self versus possible damage inflicted), and "decides" to go kamakazie style ...

In either case, starfighters (wether manned, remote-controled, or autopiloted) will have problems that need to be overcome, one way or another. It just depends on what method they choose...

 

[Smoking mirror]

SpaceFighters face other problems too, such as having enough radiation shielding to protect the pilot, as well as having life support syetems onboard, with the massive amounts of oxygen etc.. needed for a space ship to operate more than a few hours travel away from a base of opperations.

I suppose a remote link would be a good idea, though there would be questions of security (though just the same as those faced by defence satelites).

 

[Sword_Of_Geddon]

Smoke, are you making early Starfighters short-range aerospace units, because I doubt theyd be Space Carriers in the first era. Just curious

 

[Smoking mirror]

No, star fighters will have stats similar to the archer, slightly beter than normal attack, low defence, but with no defensive bombard and an extra HP. Becuase they are too small to fit a fusion or anti-matter engine they will only be available in standard versions (while the bigger ships of the early eras can upgrade to faster more powerfull versions with the access to special resources).

Satelites:
I'm not sure as to what satelites I'm going to include, Probably 3 different kinds, Small anti fighter laser sats (evolved from Anti-ICBM sats), with an extra HP. Large railgun armed "Planet punisher" type satelite and a Microwave transfer satelite, used for beaming energy from space based solar colector arrays.

Here is a preview of the microwave satelite;

 

[Tholish]

I eagerly anticipate this mod, and am so glad someone is seriously working on a
sci fi mod for Conquests. Smoking Mirror, you seem to be very up on the Hard Science Fiction and putting a lot of thought into this mod. However, all I see is tantalizing. I see a lot of units. I see screenshots of terrain. Can't you release what you've got so far? We can be playtesting in the interim.

 

[Sword_Of_Geddon]

I dont know if thats a good idea. But its Smoke's decision.

Smoke: I'm surprised that the satellite looks so similiar to todays ones. Is that a more close future unit?

 

[WildWeazel]

I know G-forces are caused by acceleration/turns, but I didn't think about the fighters being so much more maneuverable. By this time, there would probably be some sort of artificial gravity for any long-term space traveler, so zero-G exposure shouldn't be a problem. Extreme mobility, however, would be a problem for much longer.

 

[Smoking mirror]

I eagerly anticipate this mod, and am so glad someone is seriously working on a
sci fi mod for Conquests. Smoking Mirror, you seem to be very up on the Hard Science Fiction and putting a lot of thought into this mod. However, all I see is tantalizing. I see a lot of units. I see screenshots of terrain. Can't you release what you've got so far? We can be playtesting in the interim.

Some of the early stuff shown here has been lost due to a corrupted CD I was storing it on, but hopefully it should soon be at a point where we can make a playtesting version.

One of the things I could do with are civlopedia and diplomacy chat txts, if anyone knows how to do them. For the moment I'm going to sugest using the modern version of a few leaderheads already in CIV III to save on upload space.
I'll prolly post a back story document, and we can pick the factions from there.

Things we need for a playtest version;
#1 Finished terrain
#2 city and terrain buildings.
#3 a few military units, at least one satelite defender unit and one attacker
#4 a worker unit
#5 a settler unit
#6 basic civlopedia texts
#7 a map

I'm about half way through the terrain, citys and buildings shouldn't be too difficult. We've got a few units, should make a defender satelite though.
I've finished the model for the settler, but its not animated yet. The map should be the easiest bit, but will have to wait till the terrain is done.

At the moment the satelite is set to look like a normal satelite, but I may change it. I'm actualy quite keen on making a combination of the microwave satelite and the rail gun satelite, rather than having two seperate units.

 

[Smoking mirror]

Here are some first era cities I made today, Heres what I'm thinking for cities;
1st era; Just lots of prefab sections, bolted together with solar panels added and sections of radiation shielding bolted on for the "city walls" improvement. Each component has to be constructed on earth and shipped out to the high frontier, just like the international space station.

2nd era; Hollowed out giant asteroids, with lots of solar panels and bubble domes etc..

3rd era; Bio engineered Poylp or artificial diamond cylinders with an internal lifesuport habitat. Star scrapers will emerge from the surface giving a beautiful view of space.

4th era; ?

Anyway, heres two versions of the first era structures;

 

[subbss]

Sounds good.
Why does the one in the bottom row that is second from the left have different radiation shielding or no shielding?

 

[Smoking mirror]

Sounds good.
Why does the one in the bottom row that is second from the left have different radiation shielding or no shielding?

Well, I'm still experimenting. The thing is, that city walls are ineffective once the city reaches town size, but I cant think how this could be explained in space; A huge space station is prety much as vunerable as a small one. However, if the larger station has some radiation shielding added as part of its growth, while the "extra radiation shielding" improvement represents a small city with more shielding than is totaly nececary for its small population (but is usefull for protecting against attack).

Any other sugestions? I'm thinking of making the solar panels fatter and joining four of the current cities together and making the whole thing the same size as it is now. the removing quadrants of the large city to make the smaller ones.
EDIT; like this...