3rd and 4th Unique Components for VP - Official thread 87

[SuperNoobCamper]

Tried Carthage for a 200 turns of Epic speed Emperor game on Archipelago map with coral monopoly (the perfect map for Carthage) and an explosive start that i'm so far ahead of everyone before the Renaissance era and i think i'm not very keen on how the suffet works for a couple of reasons.

• Disembarking in a city rule to switch from admiral to general feels unnecessary and sometimes truly hindering when you are trying to attack another island/continent on which you have no cities using an embarked land force ..... It just creates some scenarios that i wished i had a regular GG.
• I cannot embark an Suffet unless it's in a city which also makes my games unnecessarily complicated, it'd be a nice QoL if the whole embark/disembark rule in a city to be completely ditched.
• The major difference between a normal Admiral and a Suffet is that the suffet can heal ships twice before getting consumed which is kind of ok but it does not feel like a UU at all; a temporary promotion to ignore ZoC was not impactful in my game .... Maybe an additional movement point on top of ZoC would make it more appealing?
• The Tophet is really simple yet really powerful; the extra culture on a shrine + culture tied to unit purchase pushes Dido's early game even more; in my game i'm two policies in fealty before anyone got their 1st medieval and some are still in their 5th ancient policy.
• Edit: Also if it's in a city it means it's always a GG meaning the ability to instantly teleport it to another city is not available at all which is a bummer, is there anyway around this?

 

[adan_eslavo]

credit where credit is due, @adan_eslavo, @Blue Ghost

I mostly just wrote the text. And moderate the forum thread.

Thanks you, but don't forget about @Infixo who optimized code where it was possible He did wonderful things sometimes.

 

[pineappledan]

Who wore it better?

Current icons for 4UCs university of Coimbra, and Dusklad’s Noble College.

 

[Asterix Rage]

1​

 

[SwirlSlayer]

I prefer 2, it's style fits Civ 5 more (though it's a little harder to understand what it is). ...By the way, what is that an image of?

 

[pineappledan]

Disembarking in a city rule to switch from admiral to general feels unnecessary and sometimes truly hindering when you are trying to attack another island/continent on which you have no cities using an embarked land force ..... It just creates some scenarios that i wished i had a regular GG.

Next version I'm testing changes for giving GGeneral/Admiral boost within 2 tiles of Suffet, regardless of the Suffet being land or sea. Worst case scenario, you should at least be able to project GGeneral aura 2 tiles deep from an embarked Suffet

I cannot embark an Suffet unless it's in a city which also makes my games unnecessarily complicated, it'd be a nice QoL if the whole embark/disembark rule in a city to be completely ditched.

Spoiler :

Suffets should be able to disembark anywhere a normal GG can disembark

The major difference between a normal Admiral and a Suffet is that the suffet can heal ships twice before getting consumed which is kind of ok but it does not feel like a UU at all; a temporary promotion to ignore ZoC was not impactful in my game .... Maybe an additional movement point on top of ZoC would make it more appealing?

If Suffets are able to do that then something is wrong. I never intended for Suffets to be able to heal more than base GAdmirals

 

[SuperNoobCamper]

Spoiler Carthage :
UM - Suffet (replaces Great General and Great Admiral):
must be in a Friendly City to disembark back to a Suffet
Suffets Can embark anywhere to function as a Great Admiral, and disembark in Cities to function as Great Generals
on Land:
"Leadership"
Can Construct Citadels
"Cannea and Drepana" - Units beginning their turn stacked or adjacent to a Suffet ignore ZOC for that turn) on Water:
"Naval Leadership"
Can be expended twice to full heal all stacked and adjacent units
Can perform a Voyage of Discovery
"Cannea and Drepana" - Units beginning their turn stacked or adjacent to a Suffet ignore ZOC for that turn :

The aura change would definitely be an improvement; could something about teleporting the GA to a port be done or it's a technical limitation?
Also i noticed the embarked suffet cannot pass through a city like a normal GA without disembarking -which makes it a different unit consuming all the movement points in the process- which further slows it's movement.

 

[pineappledan]

Constantly updating that OP is like being 1 guy who has to maintain a whole wiki...

In addition to ZOC, the suffet also gives adjacent units plague immunity.

There’s no way to do airlifts; it’s tied to the unit class. Also, it seems that I can’t put GGeneral aura on a GAdmiral and vice versa. I tested it and nothing happened.

there are mobility trade offs between suffets and GGs and GAs, but there are just as many mobility benefits as there are drawbacks. Suffets can disembark anywhere, same as any GG, and are considerably faster than embarked GGs. They are also able to explore deep ocean earlier than any other unit. No other GA can get onto land, meaning you can move them into oceans you have cities on that side.

the main benefit of suffets, however, is the flexibility given by sharing the GA/GG role. You can faith buy Suffets with either Authority or Imperialism, you can funnel all your GAs into citadels, or funnel all your GGs into free luxuries. And lastly, you have mobility edge in both land and sea combat. I think they are fine.

 

[SuperNoobCamper]

Plague immunity? Should i feel like an idiot for not knowing what is this? Is there plague in VP?

Not trying to act like an entitled brat but i'm not totally sold on it, i do get your point about the trade off of mobility and certain traits of normal GA for flexibilty tho.

One last questions, is it possible to change the disembarkation rule so it can be done anywhere not just in a city?

 

[Drakle]

Yeah, Carthage is one of the few civs that make me consider turning 3rd and 4th unique off when playing, because the extra stuff adds very little. I know it is hard to add something more considering they are a pretty powerful civilisation early game, but the current ones don't really cut it.

 

[pineappledan]

One last questions, is it possible to change the disembarkation rule so it can be done anywhere not just in a city?

No.
The Suffet is a full GA when in the ocean, which means that they can't pathfind onto land except onto city tiles and coastal forts. They can't disembark just anywhere because boats don't move on land.

As for balance, the suffet was our attempt at giving Carthage something to use past Classical, and we hope balance could shake out from there. I will disagree in the strongest terms with someone that dismisses Suffets as weak. With the ability to use Admiral Suffets as a free Boarding Party II AND Pincer promotion, and the ability to go Authority opener into Industry, and still faith-buy super-Admirals, my assessment is people are down on suffets, either because they don't know what Suffets can do, or they just haven't figured out how to use them.

 

[Hinin]

Plague immunity? Should i feel like an idiot for not knowing what is this? Is there plague in VP?

Plagues are negative effects dealt by enemies with special promotions. The most well known case is Boarding Party I which deals the plague "-2 MP".
On land, some units from MUCfVP also deal plague effects, like the Polynesian unique scout, or the Ethiopian Shotelai, but there is also the Byzantine Dromon (with its flaming effect) that is concerned by this..

This is why pineappledan said the Suffet offers free Boarding Party II, since it nullifies all negative effects. That, plus the "ignore ZOC" bonus, makes your units always able to manoeuver at the best of their capabilities, which is a very nice tool in capable hands. This is what the Suffet is meant to offer throughout the game : flexibility.

 

[adan_eslavo]

--------------------------------------
Should be v61, right?
And compatible version has changed probably. Maybe you should put latest beta?

 

[pineappledan]

I’ll update that to v 61.

11-25 was the last patch that contained some new code that 4UC uses, everything since then has been minor balance tweaks, so that part is accurate.

 

[SuperNoobCamper]

I noticed when i conquer enough Incan cities with Qulqas to get the cocoa monopoly my units get the cocoa leaves promotion yet they cannot cross mountains.

 

[Kim Dong Un]

@pineappledan , safe to use on newest release, or should I wait for you to update?

 

[pineappledan]

Safe

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Paradeiza doesn't mention it scales with Era, neither in the OP nor in the game. I thought it'd be an irrelevant feature but it was actually pretty neat all things considered. Nothing too big, but nice.
Is Qizilbash supposed to have its cost scale with era like other religious purchases? Because it does.
Sachem unlocks at writing, OP says Mathematics

Incan building is incredibly annoying, it actually removed my Horses from the game.

 

[pineappledan]

Proposal for Spanish Bullring, if Hacienda gets moved to base VP:


4UC - UB - Bullring (replaces Zoo)
available at Navigation (1 tech earlier)
Does not require a Circus in the City
600 Production Cost (-300 from Industrial, equivalent buildings at same tech)
+4, 4, 4 (up from 2)
+2 2 to Pastures, Forests, and Jungles (up from 21 on forest/jungle)
+50% 'WLTKD' Length, and 50Faith and Culture when a 'WLTKD' starts, scaling with Era.
-1 Unhappiness from Boredom
1000 Tourism when completed
Whenever a International Trade Route is completed, Receive a Tourism boost with the target civilization

Feedback so far:

Navigation is a long while to wait for what amounts to a (admittedly nice, with the addition of pastures) yield increase over the base building. This would put it squarely in the realm of skola and coffee house for me, probably fine and probably balanced. It'll make chopping for the perfect hacienda and village setup significantly more painful. I don't mind that though, it's part of the fun with for a civ with a good UI. The WLTKD length increase is a nice bonus you don't see too often so that's cool. I like that there's a production discount.

As for the Bullring, well I'd prefer it at an earlier building.

 

[adan_eslavo]

Hacienda moves to VP? Instead of?