3rd and 4th Unique Components for VP - Official thread 88.10

[amateurgamer88]

After some thinking, I actually think Eagle might still be irrelevant, at least when you go Authority and can buy a better unit... Regardless, I will give it a try with the new version and see if Tradition Aztecs can make use of the unit.

 

[ChefGuevara]

I think just ripping off the war chariot’s production from kills is an option.
For something different...hmm...a little gimmicky, but what about something like “increases military supply cap after x amount of kills”? Not sure if that’d get out of hand/ need a cap though.

 

[pineappledan]

That’s fine. Can’t please everyone. Or I guess it’s more correct to say can’t please anyone. Change the UCs any way you want on your local install.

 

[ChefGuevara]

That’s fine. Can’t please everyone. Or I guess it’s more correct to say can’t please anyone. Change the UCs any way you want on your local install.

Oh, sorry if this is coming off like I don’t like the eagle as is, I don’t mean any disrespect! I was just throwing things around as hypotheticals in the event that longsword eagles weren’t doing very well.

 

[Bhawb]

I'll play with the new Eagle before commenting. I'm thinking it'll be fine, even if it isn't the single coolest thing ever made. Workers are going to be useful as Medieval comes just after multiple sets of new improvements. It is also the time you'll really be ramping into capturing cities as the Aztecs now that you have strong siege units and a proper frontline unit that can take hits, and Huey to start stacking.

As a side note, I'll have to figure out how to do local mods so I can test things before complaining here.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

I don't see what's there to play with to be honest. You can imagine the unit perfectly fine because it's the same as it's now, but later. It's exactly the same thing, but weaker due to it's later access. Last time I played Aztecs, Eagle kept all the promos intact as Longsword (including Worker conversion), and this Longsword-Eagle is the same as previous Eagle after Longsword upgrade, but with +1 CS. The only thing you lose is a stronger Sword who had his uses. Sure, it also costs no Iron compared to Longsword while Eagle was Iron-free compared to Sword, but that's more important on a classical era unit as there's much more time to find some Iron in medieval.

I think the delay is pointless, just keep it as it is. I believe the unit isn't all that bad now. It could use a little something, but a nerf like this is weird

 

[Bhawb]

I don't see what's there to play with to be honest. You can imagine the unit perfectly fine because it's the same as it's now, but later. It's exactly the same thing, but weaker due to it's later access. Last time I played Aztecs, Eagle kept all the promos intact as Longsword (including Worker conversion), and this Longsword-Eagle is the same as previous Eagle after Longsword upgrade, but with +1 CS. The only thing you lose is a stronger Sword who had his uses. Sure, it also costs no Iron compared to Longsword while Eagle was Iron-free compared to Sword, but that's more important on a classical era unit as there's much more time to find some Iron in medieval.

I think the delay is pointless, just keep it as it is. I believe the unit isn't all that bad now. It could use a little something, but a nerf like this is weird

Medieval is precisely when I have ever felt like building Eagles, but now instead of building stronger Swordsmen that I don't have supply or use for and having to upgrade them into something useful for contemporary combat I can just build slightly better Longswordsmen with the massive extra bonuses from Alhambra, Armory, and Huey. It isn't just a Longswordsman with +1 CS, it's a Longswordsman with Drill I and an extra 1-2 promotions that can be built without limiting you from having more upgraded Jaguars.

There are more than enough contextual differences than "same as it's now, but later". Higher unit supply, more bonuses on creation, different goals from war, these all feed into it being a very different situation. Is it necessarily enough, or better? We won't know until we try. I'll try to mod the game tonight to see how it feels.

 

[amateurgamer88]

Medieval is precisely when I have ever felt like building Eagles, but now instead of building stronger Swordsmen that I don't have supply or use for and having to upgrade them into something useful for contemporary combat I can just build slightly better Longswordsmen with the massive extra bonuses from Alhambra, Armory, and Huey. It isn't just a Longswordsman with +1 CS, it's a Longswordsman with Drill I and an extra 1-2 promotions that can be built without limiting you from having more upgraded Jaguars.

There are more than enough contextual differences than "same as it's now, but later". Higher unit supply, more bonuses on creation, different goals from war, these all feed into it being a very different situation. Is it necessarily enough, or better? We won't know until we try. I'll try to mod the game tonight to see how it feels.

I'm curious why you'd pick this unit over the Landsknecht then. Since you are going to get the Alhambra, that means you will have this at your disposal.

 

[Bhawb]

I'm curious why you'd pick this unit over the Landsknecht then. Since you are going to get the Alhambra, that means you will have this at your disposal.

Landsknecht have different uses until the two units are upgraded to have the same stats. They're nice once you've actually got a stranglehold on a city and can just have your Landsknechts run their face into the city for gold, but Eagles are much better at pushing your frontline far enough to do that safely with an extra 20% CS, and getting workers is also extra gold and roads to utilize Landsknechts. Eagles should work well to set you up for good Landsknecht usage. Essentially, once Medieval hits I'd immediately build a bunch of Eagles to get the raw stats to start my Huey snowballing and taking some cities, while pumping 2-3 Landsknechts for gold, and as Eagles get comparatively weaker (especially once the next set of units unlocks and my Eagles are too weak to do anything without upgrading and losing worker on kill) I transition into buying Landsknechts to upgrade, and you end up with upgraded Landsknechts for anti-city and upgraded Jaguars for defending your jungles and flanking.

I'm guessing on paper it works well, considering that is essentially what I would do with current Eagle but I can't afford to actually build many Eagles because of supply constraints. Honestly any Medieval unit without a really powerful unique promotion won't hold up over time in Aztec anyway due to the fact that newly created units down the road will be getting, what, 60 exp? More? Why bother keeping old nearly vanilla units when you can pop out new units with like 6 promotions.

Which is why I think Jaguars building into Eagles is way more interesting. Huey makes it really difficult to make UUs that are worth keeping around when new units will end up with huge exp the instant they get built, and I also tend to go Zealotry with Aztec so it isn't hard to keep the fuel going.

 

[amateurgamer88]

Landsknecht have different uses until the two units are upgraded to have the same stats. They're nice once you've actually got a stranglehold on a city and can just have your Landsknechts run their face into the city for gold, but Eagles are much better at pushing your frontline far enough to do that safely with an extra 20% CS, and getting workers is also extra gold and roads to utilize Landsknechts. Eagles should work well to set you up for good Landsknecht usage. Essentially, once Medieval hits I'd immediately build a bunch of Eagles to get the raw stats to start my Huey snowballing and taking some cities, while pumping 2-3 Landsknechts for gold, and as Eagles get comparatively weaker (especially once the next set of units unlocks and my Eagles are too weak to do anything without upgrading and losing worker on kill) I transition into buying Landsknechts to upgrade, and you end up with upgraded Landsknechts for anti-city and upgraded Jaguars for defending your jungles and flanking.

I'm guessing on paper it works well, considering that is essentially what I would do with current Eagle but I can't afford to actually build many Eagles because of supply constraints. Honestly any Medieval unit without a really powerful unique promotion won't hold up over time in Aztec anyway due to the fact that newly created units down the road will be getting, what, 60 exp? More? Why bother keeping old nearly vanilla units when you can pop out new units with like 6 promotions.

Which is why I think Jaguars building into Eagles is way more interesting. Huey makes it really difficult to make UUs that are worth keeping around when new units will end up with huge exp the instant they get built, and I also tend to go Zealotry with Aztec so it isn't hard to keep the fuel going.

Extra 20% CS? I thought the Landsknecht had 20 CS and are basically Longswordsman with a bonus against mounted. Doesn't that make them a better at pushing the front line since they can actually deal with Knights and other units during this era better? While getting Workers is nice, you also run the risk of Eagles being caught in a poor position. The fact that Landsknecht can pillage without using up movements seems to help their survivability more. Please correct me if I made any false assumptions here but I still cannot see how the production is justified for Eagles.

 

[Bhawb]

Extra 20% CS? I thought the Landsknecht had 20 CS and are basically Longswordsman with a bonus against mounted. Doesn't that make them a better at pushing the front line since they can actually deal with Knights and other units during this era better? While getting Workers is nice, you also run the risk of Eagles being caught in a poor position. The fact that Landsknecht can pillage without using up movements seems to help their survivability more. Please correct me if I made any false assumptions here but I still cannot see how the production is justified for Eagles.

You are correct, the wiki (and my memory) are wrong. That's a fair point then. It could end up being the case that once again they are pushed out by a better unit with a more immediate impact and better upgrade-ability. The only major thing in Eagle's favor then, besides the worker which could be enough, is that they can be built in case you don't want to use gold on them.

Either way, I'm currently testing Eagles as 15 CS Spearman available at Iron Working without Sentry.

 

[amateurgamer88]

You are correct, the wiki (and my memory) are wrong. That's a fair point then. It could end up being the case that once again they are pushed out by a better unit with a more immediate impact and better upgrade-ability. The only major thing in Eagle's favor then, besides the worker which could be enough, is that they can be built in case you don't want to use gold on them.

Either way, I'm currently testing Eagles as 15 CS Spearman available at Iron Working without Sentry.

I personally don't feel like can be built is a strength here. Since this is late Classical and early Medieval, you don't have to worry about gold being stolen by spies so you can actually stockpile your gold for the Landsknecht to time it for a war. I do hope to hear from your test because I feel like that approach of a Pikemen replacement might be the way to go.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

I think that since glorious leader of the best Korea mentioned Aztec cats canonically shapeshifting into birds, Eagle should be on Jaguar's upgrade path. It could be just a Pikeman with Sentry and captives of war. It could be a Spear, but the AI won't know to build Jaguar first and upgrade. Unless Eagle is a Spearman replacement that cannot be built or bought, only upgraded from Jaguar. Jaguar should in this case obsolete not on Pikeman, but Tercio, so the Eagle won't obsolete in medieval. Perfectly canon, it's exactly what happened, the flavour is met, the AI won't be dumbfounded over what it should actually build.

Failing that, I'd still rather have Eagle be a sword than longsword. It was convenient in my games with the free workers, but in medieval I just won't use it much over my upgraded Jaguar Pikemen, Knights, Trebs, Heavy Skirmishers or whatnots.

 

[Mad Madigan]

I haven't gotten much hands-on experience with 3/4UC Monty, but from a pure mechanics standpoint I agree that the Eagle's free worker promotion is much more useful coming in the Classical era than Medieval. Having said that, given the history of the units I also agree that Jaguars upgrading directly into Eagles just makes too much sense for it to work any other way. However, to also play the devil's advocate, I understand the sand in the vaseline that is having Jaguars needing to upgrade into Spearmen before becoming Eagles if Eagles became Pikemen replacements. And then there is the whole historical inaccuracy of having Jaguars be a Warrior replacement when we know that their culture thrived from at least before the 1200s through the 1500s. Jaguars should really be a Spearmen or Swordsmen replacement with Eagles being their direct upgrade at Pikemen/Longswords, respectively. Buuuuut I also recognize that part of the pizzazz of the Aztec Uniques is having a special unit right from the get-go.

Personally I lean towards historical parity, but I completely understand and agree that it's game mechanics that should take priority, and that we could use more Warrior Uniques and less Classical/Medieval Uniques.

But perhaps there is a happy medium that can be achieved? Here is my more radical suggestion: Swap the unique promotions of the Jaguar and Eagle and move the unit line into the Classical > Medieval Era stretch of the timeline.

Specifically:
- Alter UA to add +33% CS when fighting in jungle/forest promotion to all Aztec melee units.
- Jaguar becomes a Swordsman replacement w/ +2 CS and Captives of War (Loses Woodsman & +25 Healing on Kill); Requires no Iron; Becomes available at Mathematics (or Masonry?) instead of Iron Working and obsoletes at Theology
- Eagle becomes a Longswordsman replacement w/ +3 CS , Sentry, and +25 Healing on Kill; Requires no Iron; Becomes available at Theology instead of Steel and obsoletes at Rifling

This does a few things:
- Retains Aztec bonus to jungle/forest combat right from the start of the game.
- Moves Jaguar and Eagle warriors into closer parity with their historical appearances (and makes them direct upgrades into each other without creating a unit with OP promotions).
- Differentiates Aztec UUs from Iroquois UUs by making Woodsman unique to Iroquois Mohawks and giving Aztec UUs more base CS .
- Keeps Captives of War promotion available in the early Classical era where its utility remains intact.
- Ties Aztec UUs to technologies that are not usually associated with combat but make sense given the other tech unlocks for their UB and UNW, giving the Aztec one more unique aspect to their mechanical gameplay (can focus more on "upper-middle" of tech tree).
- Keeps the Jaguar from stepping on the toes of other Swordman replacements and the Eagle from stepping on the toes of other Longswordsman replacements.
- Allows for Eagle to immediately obsolete Jaguar, which is fine because all that is lost from not upgrading a Jaguar to an Eagle is Captives of War (which is mostly irrelevant by this point). So you can have a few elite Eagles upgraded from your existing Jaguars that retain Captives of War, but otherwise you're forced to produce fresh Eagle Warriors once Huey Teocalli is available (which feeds into Huey gifting freshly produced units with bonus XP).

Thoughts? Is this way too much?

 

[Hinin]

Thoughts? Is this way too much?

Some elements are quite interesting, but there are some problems I think :
- First, we already have plenty of Swordsman replacement, but only one other Warrior replacement (the German Slaganz) : removing the Jaguar from the Ancient era would make it even more UU-lacking.
- It will deeply modify the way you play Aztec in the early game : you will indeed have the forest/jungle combat bonus on all your melee units (inclusing Mounted units ?), but you'll only have Warriors in the early game with far less mobility, making so that you have to create some Scouts (which is in contradiction with the ancestral Aztec strategy of the Jaguar-doom-carpet). In addition, losing a unit that is so dominating in the very early game (where there are few units and mobility and survivability are key) would put an end to the early-aggression tactics the Aztecs are known for. In that sense, it could make the Aztecs less unique, for they were one of the only civs with such a strong focus on early aggression, while there are plenty of other civs with classical/medieval warfare focus.

This is the reason why I made the earlier suggestion of keeping the Jaguar, but making it upgrade into a Longswordsman replacement while skipping the Swordsman : it indeed creates a power gap in the early classical age, but it would allow to keep the current Aztec playstyle while giving it a more lasting presence in the Medieval era (and, as we said, the Jaguar, with its combat bonus and experience acquired from combat in the early game, can fight quite well against Swordsman if using proper tactics). That doesn't mean, however, that the promotions of the Eagle and the Jaguar cannot be modified a bit (the idea of making the Jaguar obsolete at the tech required for the Eagle, whatever it is, should be kept).

In the end, as a backseat contributor to the modmod, it is easy for me to suggest or dismiss ideas like this without having to make them reality, but I still think the Jaguar/Eagle combination has potential to be much more than what it currently is : we just have to tinker with concepts like this and make some tests.

 

[Bhawb]

Strictly speaking, there is no historic evidence that Jaguars are Eagles "upgraded". They held the same ritual roles and belonged to the same order: cuāuhocēlōtl (Eagle-Ocelot), but we really don't have great evidence of how exactly you were elevated into that order other than being a noble or an extremely gifted commoner warrior. All we know is that it was the only way for a commoner to be elevated to the same position of nobles and gain similar rights in society, and that capturing enemies was at least one of the major ways for a commoner to prove themselves worthy. It isn't very likely that they upgraded from Jaguar to Eagle, they both represent extremely important religious symbols as the animals they dressed as represented the major Aztec deity and the sun; it wouldn't make sense to place the warriors representing your major deity below other warriors, they had similar importance.

That said, the reason I think upgrading is one of the simpler fixes is because they were essentially the same thing and it would be hard to meaningfully differentiate them in-game without significant changes to one or both of the units, and it gives an interesting incentive for the Aztecs to keep these units alive even when Huey is built/stacked and new units start popping out with like 6 promotions. Otherwise I'd suggest making them a melee "pair" of some sort by giving both the Woodsman promotion and then somehow making their two promotions work together better to encourage early Aztec gameplay to forgo a standard military composition and instead spam melee infantry units to capture workers and harass neighbors, just like the actual Aztecs did.

Edit: I didn't get a chance to test the direct upgrade either, but now I want to try creating a set of aura effects, one for each of the units, to encourage using them side by side and then keeping them around as semi-generals similar to how actual Jaguars/Eagles were military leaders.

 

[pineappledan]

Alright, I'll bite. Here's another proposal:

Jaguar (Warrior replacement):
10CS
Brute Force
Woodsman
+33% in forest/Jungle
15HP heal on Kill (-10 from current)
Each consecutive kill heals an additional 1 HP. After 10 kills, Jaguars upgrade to Eagles (lost on upgrade, obviously)

Eagle (Swordsman replacement):
15CS
Does not require iron.
Woodsman
15HP heal on Kill
25% chance to convert killed units into workers

• if a Jaguar manages to kill 10 things it trades 10HP for +5CS and 25% chance to convert units to workers. The resulting eagle is a super-Eagle, with +33% in jungle/forest they wouldn't otherwise have access to.
• Built/bought eagles aren't as strong as ones upgraded from Jaguars, and upgrading jaguars via money just turns them into spearmen. You have to kill 10 units in order to "hop the track"
• Eagles gain Woodsman and heal on kill, but no longer have +1 CS and +1 vision.
• A buttload of overlap with Mohawk warrior now

 

[Hinin]

Alright, I'll bite. Here's another proposal:

Jaguar (Warrior replacement):
10CS
Brute Force
Woodsman
+33% in forest/Jungle
15HP heal on Kill (-10 from current)
Each consecutive kill heals an additional 1 HP. After 10 kills, Jaguars upgrade to Eagles (lost on upgrade, obviously)

Eagle (Swordsman replacement):
15CS
Woodsman
15HP heal on Kill
25% chance to convert killed units into workers

So if a Jaguar manages to kill 10 things it trades 10HP for +5CS and 25% chance to convert units to workers. The resulting eagle is a super-Eagle, with +33% in jungle/forest they wouldn't otherwise have access to.
Built/bought eagles aren't as strong as ones upgraded from Jaguars, and upgrading jaguars via money just turns them into spearmen. You have to kill 10 units in order to "hop the track"
And Eagles no longer have +1 vision.

An interesting take. I like it. Why only +25 % conversion chance though (you won't have a lot of Eagles, so shouldn't they have like 50 % conversion chance) ? Also, you forgot to say that the Eagle would be Ironless.
In any cases, thank you for giving your take, even though you were against change at the beginning. You being the one doing the hard work, your opinion on the matter is, of course, the most important.

 

[amateurgamer88]

Alright, I'll bite. Here's another proposal:

Jaguar (Warrior replacement):
10CS
Brute Force
Woodsman
+33% in forest/Jungle
15HP heal on Kill (-10 from current)
Each consecutive kill heals an additional 1 HP. After 10 kills, Jaguars upgrade to Eagles (lost on upgrade, obviously)

Eagle (Swordsman replacement):
15CS
Does not require iron.
Woodsman
15HP heal on Kill
25% chance to convert killed units into workers

• if a Jaguar manages to kill 10 things it trades 10HP for +5CS and 25% chance to convert units to workers. The resulting eagle is a super-Eagle, with +33% in jungle/forest they wouldn't otherwise have access to.
• Built/bought eagles aren't as strong as ones upgraded from Jaguars, and upgrading jaguars via money just turns them into spearmen. You have to kill 10 units in order to "hop the track"
• Eagles gain Woodsman and heal on kill, but no longer have +1 CS and +1 vision.
• A buttload of overlap with Mohawk warrior now

There are two things I'm unclear on. First, what does the consecutive mean? Or is it just redundant and just means that you just need 10 kills? Secondly, do the kills include barbarian kills? If that's the case, then players are more likely to farm Barbarian camps then? Or is that the intention? Otherwise, I appreciate that you are willing to make changes in this matter!

 

[amateurgamer88]

@Hinin

Regarding France and Sweden, I can't give any good feedback at the moment.

First, France's UB has been changed so I haven't had a chance to test that out. As for the Triplane replacement, this is harder to determine how it is due to the recent nerf to all fighter type units. At one point, I can see the SPAD in a solid position due to its usefulness in multiple areas. Now, I wonder about their purpose. I know their logistics is designed for the French UA but the changes might require another look at the SPAD.

Secondly, the weakest part of Sweden's kit is the Skola which isn't a part of this mod. Their other components are pretty solid and, despite what people say, I do enjoy the Hakka as it give Sweden a bit more military strength without making the civ just outright broken.