More Unique Components for Vox Populi

3rd and 4th Unique Components for VP - Official thread 88.10

Near as I can tell, the 3-28 Beta didn't change any buildings or units, so the current 3/4UC build should be compatible, I think?

I could be wrong. I am not code literate, so I could very easily be wrong.
Everything is compatible.

Pogost is broken currently, and there's a major update for Eagles. Both those fixes are on the github if you want them.

I want to take another look at Pogost. It's very weak and Customs houses are a niche building already. Specifically, I'm thinking of adding something to the Tier 2 upgrade. Currently it only gives +2:c5science: and +10%:c5trade: City Connection bonus
 
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I agree that Pogost sucks. It has tiny yields of every sort, except Faith. It being provided in late renaissance on a civ that doesn't really get anything religion related before is strange.

By the way, Huey Toecalli doesn't get the 3 :c5faith::c5food: if you win a war by taking the final city despite it counting as a won war (heroic event appears, etc). I'm not sure about victory via peacing out providing yields yet, as that might've broken too, but I can say for sure exterminating Elizabeth didn't give me my yields. It used to do this properly before.
 
For the most part I do agree with your complaints. Pair them with Siege Towers and their +4 from Strategics and they will feel more menacing. When I tried them in my Assyria game they performed rather well with those conditions. I took Drill into Stalwart with them, as they do feel more like Melee Units than Mounted. Works somewhat well as you promote them. Charge also works well with the Fury of Nagal; just be sure you can reinforce them if you send them against greater numbers.

Tarkhans (Huns) feel far more underwhelming. Though, that issue is with them being attached to the Huns and we can't give the Huns a good Horseman for balance reasons.

That's the main issue with them. With great support and ideal conditions, they can do well. However, this can be said with any units. In Ancient Era, I find a Horsemen to be more versatile even without support. I guess this unit just isn't meant for me as I'll avoid them. It just makes me sad that I won't have a mounted unit until I unlock Knights for my play style.
 
That's the main issue with them. With great support and ideal conditions, they can do well. However, this can be said with any units. In Ancient Era, I find a Horsemen to be more versatile even without support. I guess this unit just isn't meant for me as I'll avoid them. It just makes me sad that I won't have a mounted unit until I unlock Knights for my play style.

I understand that the "Rough terrain malus" can be a little daunting : unfortunately, there can be no "flat terrain bias", and, the unit being a chariot, it would be quite strange to not give it this malus (all the chariots have it, including the other chariot added by MUCfVP, the Scythed Chariot).

Personally, I prefer to view this unit less as a wing unit (capable of flanking and having to keep moving) and more as the core unit of the early Assyrian army (as were Assyrian chariots irl) : accompagnied by some spearman and archers and a STower (to maintain the line if things turn ugly), they can do a good job at pushing at the heart of enemy formations (where they enjoy some great combat bonus), and then they can strike fast at missile unit when there is a breach. It's another take on the melee cavalry archetype, and one that isn't always the most evident, but it can really be a surprising unit if used well.
 
I understand that the "Rough terrain malus" can be a little daunting : unfortunately, there can be no "flat terrain bias", and, the unit being a chariot, it would be quite strange to not give it this malus (all the chariots have it, including the other chariot added by MUCfVP, the Scythed Chariot).

Personally, I prefer to view this unit less as a wing unit (capable of flanking and having to keep moving) and more as the core unit of the early Assyrian army (as were Assyrian chariots irl) : accompagnied by some spearman and archers and a STower (to maintain the line if things turn ugly), they can do a good job at pushing at the heart of enemy formations (where they enjoy some great combat bonus), and then they can strike fast at missile unit when there is a breach. It's another take on the melee cavalry archetype, and one that isn't always the most evident, but it can really be a surprising unit if used well.

The difference with Scythed Chariot is the fact that it's ranged. Its Scythed ability is quite interesting, though I haven't tried it out yet. Overall, I can see how it still utilizes a hit and run strategy we're familiar with where positioning is even more important.

However, the Iron Chariot is, for me at least, in an odd situation. With limited supply limit, you have to pick and choose what you get. I just realized that the Siege Tower also takes up supply so that's 2 less supply to work with. If I want a unit that can flank and keep moving, I'd want a unit not ending its turn if the attacked target is on a hill or in a forest. As for striking at the heart, it's a double-edged sword. Iron Chariot are still affected by ZoC. Iron Chariot might be strong but it will be overwhelmed by AI units that generally outnumber yours. I'm sure there are very specific situations where they can be used surprisingly well but I can't justify the use of a unit that doesn't immediately jump out as a better version of the unit it replaces in most scenarios.

In addition, the time required to set things up for what you need is too long. Siege Tower is unlocked at Military Theory while Archers are unlocked at Trapping. By the time you have the ideal composition (assuming you ignore Writing to do so), you'll find yourself in early Classical era and, on higher difficulties, the AI might have already entered Medieval. The delay of the Royal Library is a pretty big deal as you lose a huge boost to science. If my enemy has Knights and I have my ideal composition, I won't like my odds. I can understand that the Iron Chariot is an unique concept but it has some obvious flaws that I can't ignore.
 
On Emperor (what I play at), you absolutely have time to pick up those techs and build units to get warfare going. I pretty consistently am able to start proper city-taking with any warmonger by the time I get Catapults/Swordsmen, and Assyria has no particular need to rush Writing when you can steal it. Iron Chariots are just Swordsmen on a horse that don't require resources.
 
However, the Iron Chariot is, for me at least, in an odd situation. With limited supply limit, you have to pick and choose what you get. I just realized that the Siege Tower also takes up supply so that's 2 less supply to work with. If I want a unit that can flank and keep moving, I'd want a unit not ending its turn if the attacked target is on a hill or in a forest. As for striking at the heart, it's a double-edged sword. Iron Chariot are still affected by ZoC. Iron Chariot might be strong but it will be overwhelmed by AI units that generally outnumber yours. I'm sure there are very specific situations where they can be used surprisingly well but I can't justify the use of a unit that doesn't immediately jump out as a better version of the unit it replaces in most scenarios.
So... Lamassu gives 2x the :c5war: military supply of a normal wall, and it's a prereq for Mathematics. Also, if you're so pinched for supply, you realize you don't need to build both siege towers for it to work right?

So what exactly is the issue here?
 
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Huey is affected by GA from a Peace, it didn't break. Killing the last city of someone will give you a HE and a GA, but not the Huey charge. Not sure about Cathedral of Notre Dame yet, I'll build it and let you know if it also got broken.

Fighting against Iroquois (who obviously had forests near them) with my super Longsword Jagles was very fun, they didn't know what to do.
 
Not sure about Cathedral of Notre Dame yet, I'll build it and let you know if it also got broken.
Notre Dame uses the exact same code as the Huey does to trigger its golden age. If Huey works then ND does
I agree that Pogost sucks. It has tiny yields of every sort, except Faith. It being provided in late renaissance on a civ that doesn't really get anything religion related before is strange.
I was looking at the GlobalBuildingGoldMaintenanceMod... That would be really cool, but I'm afraid the gold savings would get out of hand really quickly on a global modifier. I wish there was a local version... Maybe I'll put in a feature request for it if people think that would be a good idea? It fits with the idea of the pogost turning into an administrative building. Lowering maintenance cost of things in the city. Even a low modifier like 5-10% would give considerable gold savings.
 
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So... Lamassu gives 2x the :c5war: military supply of a normal wall, and it's a prereq for Mathematics. Also, if you're so pinched for supply, you realize you don't need to build both siege towers for it to work right?

So what exactly is the issue here?

Even with one siege tower, my military supply, despite Lamassu, will be less than the AI. I have to pick and choose what I want to build. My issue is that I can't justify in my games to spare any of those supplies for Iron Chariot. Now, I understand you don't want to change this unit. Regarding my response to @Hinin , I was just sharing my thoughts as to why Iron Chariot isn't working for me. I will promise that I won't bring up Iron Chariot ever again here and will refrain from discussing about it.
 
Notre Dame uses the exact same code as the Huey does to trigger its golden age. If Huey works then ND does

I was looking at the GlobalBuildingGoldMaintenanceMod... That would be really cool, but I'm afraid the gold savings would get out of hand really quickly on a global modifier. I wish there was a local version... Maybe I'll put in a feature request for it if people think that would be a good idea? It fits with the idea of the pogost turning into an administrative building. Lowering maintenance cost of things in the city. Even a low modifier like 5-10% would give considerable gold savings.

I like this idea a lot, actually. But if it's local, do you think it would push Russia tall? Since playing wide would mean generally having less buildings per city.
 
I seem to have found a bug with the Aztecs Huey Teocalli.

It's icon is just missing, pitch black. I checked the files for the mod and the icon files are there.
I'm on Community patch v.89 ; Community Balance Overhaul v.13 ; City-State Diplomacy for CBP v27; C4DF-CBP v11; More Luxuries for CBO v.155; 43 Civs-CBP v1; Community Events v4; Promotion Icons for VP v1; Promotion Tree for VP v20; Wonders Expanded v2; Enlightenment Era for Vox Populi.

My EUI version is 1.28, the legacy version for stability.

Links to images:
https://ibb.co/MZ3HY3f
https://ibb.co/BZ2cd49
https://ibb.co/Rh4pyDg
https://ibb.co/1ZLt1KR
https://ibb.co/X54ZR5t
https://ibb.co/8mJnXSs
 
Am I to understand that you are using the most recent build of VP and 4UC together? Sorry, I'm not used to someone listing out each individual version number; most just give the VP version by release date (ie VP 03-28, the most recent version).

If you are using mismatched versions of various mods, there will often be compatibility issues that arise. For instance, with the change to local unhappiness 2 versions ago, I had to add a new table to every happiness reduction building. If you are using a newer version of 4UC with an older version of VP then those buildings will simply not exist. That includes Huey Teocalli, but also at least a dozen other buildings.

FWIW, I'm not having your problem with my own install:
Spoiler :
upload_2019-3-31_15-59-1.png
 
I'm using the latest stable version on the "Community Patch-How to install" with the installer, under the filename 'Vox Populi(2-17-3).exe'

I'm guessing you're using Vox Populi(3-28-b)?

I'll check if that fixes it, since I don't currently have any saves going I might as well.

EDIT: That fixed it. I'd recommend making a note to use the current beta version.
 
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Even with one siege tower, my military supply, despite Lamassu, will be less than the AI. I have to pick and choose what I want to build. My issue is that I can't justify in my games to spare any of those supplies for Iron Chariot. Now, I understand you don't want to change this unit. Regarding my response to @Hinin , I was just sharing my thoughts as to why Iron Chariot isn't working for me. I will promise that I won't bring up Iron Chariot ever again here and will refrain from discussing about it.
I will continue discussing, because there was some buggy stuff going on with Fury of Negral and flanking bonus.

Spoiler :
Screenshot (24).png
Shouldn't that be 30% flanking bonus?

Spoiler :
Screenshot (25).png
I'm not receiving any Negral bonus at all with this knight (yes, it has the Negral promotion)...

It was doing this from the get go with all the Iron chariots I sent out. Sometimes it applied fine, but other times such as above, you can see it clearly wasn't working. One time I think I even saw it apply a 20% Negral bonus for adjacent unit when the only other unit involved was actually my own spearman directly behind my Chariot. Can anyone confirm that this UU is working as intended?

Also going to add that I don't really play with any huge or game altering mods, mostly just aesthetic, so I can't see this being an incompatibility.
 
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It uses the exact same table as the naval breeched promotion. I haven’t got a clue how it works :)
 
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