3rd and 4th Unique Components for VP - Official thread 88.10

[pineappledan]

Why only +25 % conversion chance though (you won't have a lot of Eagles, so shouldn't they have like 50 % conversion chance) ?

Because the eagle is also getting 15HP, and lowering the % chance just seems fair.
They will be able to build/buy eagles as normal swordsman replacements, but ones that upgraded from being Jaguars have the +33% bonus in forest/jungle. You will have as many normal eagles as you want, but special eagles will be rare.

First, what does the consecutive mean?

First kill heals 15HP. second kill heals 16HP, all the way up to 24. Instead of gaining 25HP on kill, the unit turns into an Eagle.

Since the original promotion gives 25, I thought I could use 25HP as a ceiling, and the more HP you heal serves as a visual tracker for how far along the jaguar is towards upgrading. The system would use a set of 9 promotions called 'cuāuhocēlōtl', which are added/removed from units each time they kill something. If people feel the scaling HP on kills is confusing/unnecessary then it can be dropped.

Secondly, do the kills include barbarian kills? If that's the case, then players are more likely to farm Barbarian camps then? Or is that the intention?

Yes.

 

[Bhawb]

I think it is fine that players can make better use of the UUs upgrade, the same is true of basically every UU that has special bonuses that can interact in deeper ways. I don't expect Egypt AI to understand what is happening with the Chariot Archer UU, or India AI to farm barbs with the Archer UU for faith/culture, its just the nature of AI vs player and why AI gets handicaps.

 

[Mad Madigan]

@pineappledan I think that's a fun way to show the upgrade from Jaguar to Eagle, but I agree with you that the Eagle just ends up being nearly identical to the Mohawk, which is boring. I know that the Woodsman promotion is considered vital in order to allow Aztec units to move around in the jungle/forest early game, but it also overlaps with the Iroquois UA. That was why I suggested removing it and giving all Aztec melee (not mounted) units the +33% combat bonus in forest/jungle as part of their UA. That would leave the Captives of War and the Sentry promotions as what separates the Eagle from the Mohawk, but maybe what's really needed is to give Jaguars and Eagles Trailblazer I?

So Jaguar and Eagle are as you suggested but Trailblazer I instead of Woodsman to separate them from Mohawks, and then +33% combat bonus moved to UA so it stays a part of all Aztec melee units?

 

[pineappledan]

It's not possible to give units trailblazer I without unlocking the whole Trailblazer line to units.
I'm not in the market to completely disassemble multiple UUs and UAs just to make the extra UCs fit. This is a bonus content modmod, not a balance overhaul.

Perhaps the better solution is to keep the 25HP heal on both units, and have both the 33% forest/jungle & woodsman promotions as carrots to keep on Jaguar upgrade? Then give Eagle back its +1 vision?

Jaguar (Warrior replacement):
10CS
Brute Force
Woodsman
+33% in forest/Jungle
25HP heal on Kill
Jaguars upgrade to Eagles if they kill 10 units

Eagle (Swordsman replacement):
15CS
Does not require iron.
25HP heal on Kill
25% chance to convert killed units into workers
+1 Vision

 

[FoxOfWar]

Hmm. I do like where we are getting at, certainly. 10 unit kills on paper sound like a bit much, but barbarians do exist so it's probably one of those 'will have to test in practice' things. Odds are, it's probably quite fine (I mean, Jaguars as they are most certainly are fine so an upgrade chance, even if it's a bit far one, is just icing on that cake).

Eagle also having that heal on kill goes a long way to making them attractive to attempt worker "creation" with, too.

 

[pineappledan]

Hmm. I do like where we are getting at, certainly. 10 unit kills on paper sound like a bit much, but barbarians do exist so it's probably one of those 'will have to test in practice' things. Odds are, it's probably quite fine (I mean, Jaguars as they are most certainly are fine so an upgrade chance, even if it's a bit far one, is just icing on that cake).

Just another reason to hunt barbs like mad and be a total butthole to your neighbors: So you can get those sweet, sweet Super-Eagles. Probably won't ever manage to get more than 2 though. Once the window closes on ancient warfare, you aren't going to be getting any more chances to take down units with jags.

 

[ChefGuevara]

Hmm...I'm not sure how I feel about that, but I do agree that making big changes to base VP stuff should be avoided if possible.
I think Longsword Eagles, as they are currently, should at least get a try first though

 

[Kim Dong Un]

Perhaps the better solution is to keep the 25HP heal on both units, and have both the 33% forest/jungle & woodsman promotions as carrots to keep on Jaguar upgrade? Then give Eagle back its +1 vision?

Jaguar (Warrior replacement):
10CS
Brute Force
Woodsman
+33% in forest/Jungle
25HP heal on Kill
Jaguars upgrade to Eagles if they kill 10 units

Eagle (Swordsman replacement):
15CS
Does not require iron.
25HP heal on Kill
25% chance to convert killed units into workers
+1 Vision

I think this is worth a shot. Whatever you decide, I appreciate your efforts, and thanks again for complying with our scrutiny.

I think Longsword Eagles, as they are currently, should at least get a try first though

Hah, we get Dan to budge, and now you want him to revert already? As Swagolio highlighted, pushing them back will nerf their value, and Medieval is already littered with other UU's . The current purposed changes introduce a new unique gameplay element, which will have incentive and encourages the player to stay true to Aztec intended strategy. Your game will likely still be dictated by your starting ability to ride the Jag wave, and grinding out a few 'Super-Eagles' should most importantly be fun and feel rewarding/impactful, which is what this is all about.

Also, I know it's not ideal, but I don't think we should worry about the Iroquois overlap too much. The fact is that the Americas, top to bottom, were/are home to a multitude of people that dealt with similar terrain, and were proficient in doing so (Incans were probably great at traversing through jungle and forest too...). Bottom line is, we all know there's still quite a stark cultural difference between the two civs and their general intentions (unless blood thirsty, wide Hiawatha is some kind of meta I'm unaware of lol), and If there's a couple instances of similarity over the course of a project with this scope, I think it's no biggie. I'm sure we'll keep brainstorming, but Dan's above changes seem sufficient to test.

Edit* - What is the general flavor and gameplan for AI Iroquois anyways...?

 

[Hinin]

What is the general flavor and gameplan for AI Iroquois anyways...?

Hugging trees and punching bears.

More seriously, to me the Iroquois have a sort of wide-defensive mindset : they have to settle near as much forests as possible before you start cutting their precious trees, and so forward-settling Hiawatha is quite the common sight to me. Once installed, they can be very difficult to dislodge (have you ever tried to siege an Iroquois city when they have "Woodsmen Horsemen"... good memories...) and will have a very decent production/food ratio that ensures they thrive in the early-game (so Longhouse should be an absolute priority) and develop quickly afterwards. The AI uses Hiawatha quite well, for the Iroquois bonus are quite simple to use, as long as you have forest/jungle.

Also, Prowler... Fighting a group of them in rough terrain can be nightmarish if you lack mobility.

The Aztecs can be quite good against the Iroquois, for you can shut them down in the early game by forbidding settling and fighting them in their own terrain without being constantly slowed down by forests/jungles. The Mohawk warriors are still dangerous though.

 

[pineappledan]

Just putting the finishing touches on the new eagle on Github. Testing it right now. If you guys want to try the new build, you can download the github repository and just replace the aztec and text folders, then take it for a spin.

EDIT: testing complete. New Jaguar => Eagle function works as intended

 

[Bhawb]

A quick question, does "killing" civilian units count as kills for the upgrade? I know some units get captured but IIRC things like Diplomatic units get outright erased.

 

[pineappledan]

Good question. I have no idea if capturing a civilian counts as a “kill”. I did check if cities count though (they do).

 

[ProCatGamer]

On the first page of this thread it says that when playing with EE with this mod, certain unique components will change which one it replaces...
However looking through my game now, it does not correctly replace the one mentioned in the first tab but retains what it originally replaces (e.g. French Grande Ecole replaces public school but academy in EE, however in my game with EE, it still replaces public school)
Most of them have this error except the Siam's Seir Morb but it immediately expires at the next upgrade (it replaces howitzer and expire at artillery instead of rocket artillery?)

 

[amateurgamer88]

Well, I tried the Iron Chariot after they were moved to Bronze Working. I don't think I ever raged so much about a unit. Maybe it doesn't fit my playstyle but that end turn in rough terrain is far too irritating. Attacking an enemy unit on a hill or forest? End turn. Have two hills side by side forcing you to either end the turn on one of them or go the long way around? Have terrain with lots of forests, hills and/or rivers? Hunting barbarians feels like you're using a non mounted melee unit most of the time. I also noticed that, if my city is on a hill, moving into the city ends the Iron Chariot's turn. I honestly want standard Horsemen over Iron Chariots at this point as, at least for me, this UU for Assyria needs too many things going its way. It's pretty expensive in terms of gold or production and I feel like I get little out of it with its CS until I improve Horses/Iron. Early rushes are usually out of the question and I question their effectiveness later on. I'd probably just spam Skirmishers in Classical era so the Iron Chariots will lose some of its CS. Anyways, sorry for the rant but this is how I feel about the Iron Chariot.

I'm sure @pineappledan got tired of my rants about this unit by now, lol.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Playing New Eagle Aztecs since I have installed Civ 5 today on my new computer, everything works as advertised so far. On the slightly snaky land (or with many Jags) it was hard to get last hits for Eaglejags as it's not easy to reach the guy you want to kill with the right Jag, but I got one already. If more Barbies spawned, my task would be much easier - likewise if Enrico decided to expand the MoV on the CS rather than moving him back out of fear after he saw 5 jags and 3 archers hiding in the bushes. I suggest going Drill on Jags so they get a free Shock promo instantly after the reveru appu, I went Shock because I'm used to it and that's suboptimal even if you plan to get Al Hombre the Authority Castle. I'm liking it.

 

[pineappledan]

Drill is optimal because they get a free shock promotion when upgrading to Eagles anyways (base swordsman promotion). If you go Shock then that's a wasted promotion.

Don't tell anyone else, but I intentionally set the kill requirement so high so that it would take either extreme luck, a low difficulty, or raging barbs to funnel all the necessary kills onto a single jaguar. Now the Eagle HAS to be a swordsman or else the very fun and unique ability (that you almost will never get to use) wouldn't work.

Thus ends the eagle debate

 

[phantomaxl1207]

Well, I tried the Iron Chariot after they were moved to Bronze Working. I don't think I ever raged so much about a unit. Maybe it doesn't fit my playstyle but that end turn in rough terrain is far too irritating. Attacking an enemy unit on a hill or forest? End turn. Have two hills side by side forcing you to either end the turn on one of them or go the long way around? Have terrain with lots of forests, hills and/or rivers? Hunting barbarians feels like you're using a non mounted melee unit most of the time. I also noticed that, if my city is on a hill, moving into the city ends the Iron Chariot's turn. I honestly want standard Horsemen over Iron Chariots at this point as, at least for me, this UU for Assyria needs too many things going its way. It's pretty expensive in terms of gold or production and I feel like I get little out of it with its CS until I improve Horses/Iron. Early rushes are usually out of the question and I question their effectiveness later on. I'd probably just spam Skirmishers in Classical era so the Iron Chariots will lose some of its CS. Anyways, sorry for the rant but this is how I feel about the Iron Chariot.

I'm sure @pineappledan got tired of my rants about this unit by now, lol.

For the most part I do agree with your complaints. Pair them with Siege Towers and their +4 from Strategics and they will feel more menacing. When I tried them in my Assyria game they performed rather well with those conditions. I took Drill into Stalwart with them, as they do feel more like Melee Units than Mounted. Works somewhat well as you promote them. Charge also works well with the Fury of Nagal; just be sure you can reinforce them if you send them against greater numbers.

Tarkhans (Huns) feel far more underwhelming. Though, that issue is with them being attached to the Huns and we can't give the Huns a good Horseman for balance reasons.

 

[Bhawb]

Tarkhans definitely feel underwhelming, but Huns themselves kick so much ass early that you definitely couldn't change it. And the extra movement for civilians is nice when I'm forward settling the crap out of my neighbors.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Drill is optimal because they get a free shock promotion when upgrading to Eagles anyways (base swordsman promotion). If you go Shock then that's a wasted promotion.

Don't tell anyone else, but I intentionally set the kill requirement so high so that it would take either extreme luck, a low difficulty, or raging barbs to funnel all the necessary kills onto a single jaguar. Now the Eagle HAS to be a swordsman or else the very fun and unique ability (that you almost will never get to use) wouldn't work.

Don't worry, I won't ever tell anyone this most guarded of secrets. No one but me shall ever know Aztec felines need 10 kills to turn into birds so their upgrade is hard, but satisfying to use, and all of that is done with premeditation. It's probably hard to completely change what sort of an animal you are, so it makes sense.

Anyway, got 4 Jagles in the game I'm rolling now (the last one I left because the map got too crazy). I crippled Elizabeth and Atilla early with brutal wars, and I might get a fifth because Ahmad is getting uppity and settling near me (easy last hit on a city for Jaguar, possibly on an unit too). They can at least take a city or last hit of an unit in classical, and from my experience they should do it in medieval a bit too if you slaughter most of the enemies, so the new Jags are an enjoyable thing. Jagles aren't as good as I thought, though. I expected a super unit, and it's not one without forests, and this map doesn't like them. It's for the best, I guess, it's hard to estimate when the first one comes - and if it comes fast, it's a monster.

I really enjoy the outcome of the effort you're putting into this mod, nice work.

 

[Guynemer]

Near as I can tell, the 3-28 Beta didn't change any buildings or units, so the current 3/4UC build should be compatible, I think?

I could be wrong. I am not code literate, so I could very easily be wrong.