[Extension] 3rd and 4th Unique Components for VP - Official thread 88.10

[pineappledan]

With how monumental the next patch is shaping up to be, me changing anything for balance reasons right now is pointless.

Wait and see.

 

[pernas]

The new Assyrian uniques are very nice. What I usually consider one of the most boring civs is helped a lot by the early culture from the Lamassu Gates. The unique horseman is probably one of the most versatile units in the game, it is both not overpowered, and a nice option to have in the early game.

 

[CppMaster]

"Hard and Fast" (+2 Combat Power if Player has more Horses or Iron than Iron Chariot Units. Bonuses can stack)

How is it calculated?
+2 * (HorseCount + IronCount - IronChariotCount)?
where HorseCount and IronCount are total resources or unused?

 

[pernas]

I'm pretty sure it's unused, but really the best part about the unit is that you don't need horses, and can spam as many as you want/need (It also gets +7% attack per adjacent enemy, so you always have decent CS). The bad part is that it gets the chariot archer rough terrain penalty for movement.

 

[CppMaster]

From lua script:

local iNumHorses = pPlayer:GetNumResourceAvailable(GameInfoTypes.RESOURCE_HORSE, 1)
    local iNumIron = pPlayer:GetNumResourceAvailable(GameInfoTypes.RESOURCE_IRON, 1)
    local iResourceBonuses = 0
    
    if (iNumHorses >= #tIronChariots) then
        iResourceBonuses = iResourceBonuses + 1
    end

    if (iNumIron >= #tIronChariots) then
        iResourceBonuses = iResourceBonuses + 1
    end

    for i, pIronChariot in pairs(tIronChariots) do
        if iResourceBonuses == 0 then
            pIronChariot:SetBaseCombatStrength(13)
        elseif iResourceBonuses == 1 then
            pIronChariot:SetBaseCombatStrength(15)
        else
            pIronChariot:SetBaseCombatStrength(17)
        end
    end

@pineappledan
GetNumResourceAvailable returns total number of resources that you have, or that you don't use?

 

[pineappledan]

GetNumResourceAvailable returns total number of resources that you control, but are not currently using.

If you have at least 1 horse that you arent using, then your iron chariots has 15
If you have at least 1 iron that you arent using, then your iron chariots has 15
If you have at least 1 horse and 1 iron that you aren't using, then your iron chariot has 17

If you have 2 iron chariots you need 2 horses/2 iron, etc

 

[CppMaster]

GetNumResourceAvailable returns total number of resources that you control, but are not currently using.

If you have at least 1 horse that you arent using, then your iron chariots has 15
If you have at least 1 iron that you arent using, then your iron chariots has 15
If you have at least 1 horse and 1 iron that you aren't using, then your iron chariot has 17

If you have 2 iron chariots you need 2 horses/2 iron, etc

Ok, got it.
Just to be curious, what was the idea behind it?

 

[pineappledan]

Chariots were a major part of the Neo-Assyrian war machine
Ancient era unique units can't have unique resource requirements, or else you are unlikely to get to use them (with the exception of the Hunnic Tarkhan, because the Horse Archer already has no strategic requirement). Horsemen are so good early that we felt there needed to be more of a drawback than just the chariot movement penalty. So Blue Ghost had the idea for the CS manipulation mechanic.

 

[kenneth1221]

Loving the mod! It makes Rome even more amazing for warmongering, though sometimes I find it odd that my siege engines move faster than the units that escort them. I'm curious what the basis for Latifundia spawning figs is, though.

Also, and I don't mean this as a criticism, are there no better names for the Carthage shrine UB? I got curious and typed it into Google and the first definition that shows up is "a term for hell". Like, oof. IMO that's sort of analogous to an American Great Diplomat UU with a "Banana Republic" promotion that's much better at flipping city states to American allies--great in game benefit, technically historically accurate, really not the noblest depiction of the civ.

 

[Paramecium]

After having some nice threesome with VP and that really good modmod, I would like to post some observations and opinions:

• The Inca Unique Scout seems not to work or at least I didnt see where the extra yields pop up. In general I am not so convinced by that unit. I lies on the upper tech tree while as Inca you would rush for terrace farms imo and I am not so sure if rushing the scout upgrade would make that much sense, sure, your slingers are on that way, but if you dont have sea ressources nearby it does not make that much sense (at least to me) and as Inca it is very likely that you wont have that much coast.
• The Germany Slaganz helps in the early game, but I would prefer that the trigger for points for nearest CS would trigger more often, at the moment, it very rarely does anything usefull in the early game. On the other side, the barbarian conversion is a two edged sword, you can get in a very short time many units, even with those special barb promotions, but in most cases, those units are inferior to any other! They drain your early gold income and really need to be upgraded to get usefull, but the hand axe thrower need the composite bowman to be unlocked. I tried a little bit Authority with Germany, but I felt like, that Progress would still be the better choice, because of the better gold income, your smaller army, but bigger pockets to upgrade them later, and the problem, that you might have a big army early on as authority, but the Slaganz is not enough to take cities.
• Just a small thing, the Teutonic Order comes later, not earlier like the tool tips says. Couldnt test it that much yet, but you want kind of rush it and it will help you to spread your religion by other means, but again, progress might be better here, to unlock it faster.
• The Aztec's Eagle Warrior's special Promotion, the conversion into Workers might trigger too often. You get the Eagle at Iron Working, so you should already have some workers, but if you fight a lot, you get more and more, which are not very usefull to you, so had to delete a lot of them.
• The Huey Teocalli, couldnt use it that much yet, I think it begins really to shine in the late game, if the bonus XP is stacked quite nicely, but because the golden age counter gets higher and higher and it comes quite late, you need your time to get it up. So it will be quite unlikely that your UU will benefit from it. But I like the concept at least, it is kind of a little bit weaker version of the Assyrian UNW which might help the Aztecs to stay competitive in wars later in the game.
• The new Unique Archer for India is quite fun, it gives India a very early BIG advantage. But in my mindset I still go Tradition with India and as Tradition, I am usually not that big warmonger. But raiding wars for xp is now a thing.

So, some impressions I had. But there is still A LOT to try out, that will need some time. But you guys did a GREAT work! Thank you very much!

 

[Bad_At_Diplomacy]

Finally installed this mod, and absolutely love it, but having a bit of a compatibility issue at the moment.

Wanted to see if anyone had run into a similar problem.

Problem: There isn't a 'make peace' button with City States. Meaning that any city state I go to war with, I cannot ever make peace with. Also 'diplomatic marriage' appears twice at the bottom.

Mod List:
Full Vox Populi
Unique City States (I think the problem is a mod-conflict here)
3rd and 4th unique components
Enlightenment Era (plus the little compatibility patch)
Tectonic map script
Wonders Expanded
World Congress Reformation

Any ideas? Unfortunately I really like the Unique City States mod, so am loathe to disable it.

Clarification: The 'declare war' button never flips to 'make peace' - additionally, even though making peace with city states is part of peace treaties, it simply doesn't happen.

 

[kenneth1221]

Finally installed this mod, and absolutely love it, but having a bit of a compatibility issue at the moment.

Wanted to see if anyone had run into a similar problem.

Assuming you're using EUI, there's a fix for this (at least the Diplomatic Marriage part) in the Unique City States Thread. Unique City-States. Though if you could do me a favor? When you get to the Medieval Era, could you check whether Chanceries provide you paper? I have a similar set-up as you and they don't.

 

[pineappledan]

Glad to hear back from a bunch of people!

Loving the mod! It makes Rome even more amazing for warmongering, though sometimes I find it odd that my siege engines move faster than the units that escort them. I'm curious what the basis for Latifundia spawning figs is, though.

Also, and I don't mean this as a criticism, are there no better names for the Carthage shrine UB? I got curious and typed it into Google and the first definition that shows up is "a term for hell". Like, oof. IMO that's sort of analogous to an American Great Diplomat UU with a "Banana Republic" promotion that's much better at flipping city states to American allies--great in game benefit, technically historically accurate, really not the noblest depiction of the civ.

America already has "Manifest Destiny" as its UA, so I hardly see how that isn't worse
From the civilipedia. Hope this clears up some of the reasoning:

latifundium:
An ancient precursor to today’s agribusinesses, A Latifundium was an expansive privately owned farm specializing in intensive agriculture. The first latifundia were accumulated from the spoils of war, confiscated from conquered peoples beginning in the early 2nd century BC in Magna Graecia (Southern Italy). The Latifundia system later expanded with conquest, to the Roman provinces of the Maghreb and Hispania Baetica in southern Spain

These estates depended on forced labor for their productivity, often supplied by the enslavement of the very peoples whose land had been taken. The Latifundia consolidated into larger estates with greater economies of scale. Owners re-invested their profits by purchasing small neighbouring farms. Evicted from their farms and replaced by slave labour, the Roman peasantry were forced to find work in the cities of Rome, though often resorting to squatting and handouts.

Latifundia became the template upon which later European nations would base their imperial experiments. The Spanish are especially noteworthy for patterning the Encomienda system after the late Roman Latifundia.

Tophet:
"Tophet" is a Hebrew term for a place of worship and human sacrifice to the Canaanite gods, and has become a colorful synonym for hell within Judeo-Christian theology. Usually located outside cities, Tophets were holy places where sacrifices to the gods could be presented to the heads of the Phoenician pantheon, Ba'al Hammon, the god of weather and vegetation, and his consort, Tanit.

Regular sacrifices were made to ensure the prosperity of Carthage, and the ashes of burnt offerings were sealed within the Tophet. Child sacrifice, once prevalent throughout the Near-East, was a persistent hallmark of Carthaginian religious life long after contemporary cultures had shunned the practice. Modern archaeological evidence suggests children were sacrificed in times of great stress such as wars, plagues, and natural disasters as an act of divine supplication.

This is what happens when the only thing that remains of your culture is the propaganda that other cultures used to demonize you. You should also look up the word “punic”. We could have named it “altar”, but that’s pretty vague.

The Inca Unique Scout seems not to work or at least I didnt see where the extra yields pop up. In general I am not so convinced by that unit. I lies on the upper tech tree while as Inca you would rush for terrace farms imo and I am not so sure if rushing the scout upgrade would make that much sense, sure, your slingers are on that way, but if you dont have sea resources nearby it does not make that much sense (at least to me) and as Inca it is very likely that you wont have that much coast.

I tried it myself a while back and the gold was working fine...
It's also very likely you could get a chasqui from a ruin, and you dont need more than 1-2 to get the job done. Unfortunately, I don't think they're as handy as the Koa, but they've got a niche.

The Germany Slaganz helps in the early game, but I would prefer that the trigger for points for nearest CS would trigger more often, at the moment, it very rarely does anything usefull in the early game. On the other side, the barbarian conversion is a two edged sword, you can get in a very short time many units, even with those special barb promotions, but in most cases, those units are inferior to any other! They drain your early gold income and really need to be upgraded to get usefull, but the hand axe thrower need the composite bowman to be unlocked. I tried a little bit Authority with Germany, but I felt like, that Progress would still be the better choice, because of the better gold income, your smaller army, but bigger pockets to upgrade them later, and the problem, that you might have a big army early on as authority, but the Slaganz is not enough to take cities.

I think the Slaganz can swing between almost useless, and the best thing ever rather easily. When I tested Germany, I managed to get an ally CS with a camp clearing quest, and 1 more barb kill. I would recommend gifting early barb units to nearby CS, if you can't handle the gold upkeep. I waited until I had my Slaganz upgraded to spearmen, then I crippled Japan (but I didn't take any of his cities), in my playthrough.

2 things to keep in mind when playing with Slaganz:

• Gifting units away is a perfectly valid use of early barbs. That's why we had to set the influence bonus so low.
• All the unique promotions (including the +50% vs barbs) stay on upgrade, so there's no rush

Just a small thing, the Teutonic Order comes later, not earlier like the tool tips says. Couldnt test it that much yet, but you want kind of rush it and it will help you to spread your religion by other means, but again, progress might be better here, to unlock it faster.

Oops. I'll get that fixed in the next version. thanks

The Aztec's Eagle Warrior's special Promotion, the conversion into Workers might trigger too often. You get the Eagle at Iron Working, so you should already have some workers, but if you fight a lot, you get more and more, which are not very usefull to you, so had to delete a lot of them.

Yup, just sell the extra ones. Unless we put the worker converter super low, like 10%, then people are always going to get excess workers. Just delete the ones you don't need. This might actually be a great question for @Blue Ghost, see if he wants to lower it to 25%. I have no opinion

The new Unique Archer for India is quite fun, it gives India a very early BIG advantage. But in my mindset I still go Tradition with India and as Tradition, I am usually not that big warmonger. But raiding wars for xp is now a thing.

There's a bug with the Dhanurgraha right now. It's giving 2x as much culture on kills than it's supposed to. That will be fixed in the next version

Clarification: The 'declare war' button never flips to 'make peace' - additionally, even though making peace with city states is part of peace treaties, it simply doesn't happen.

There isn’t anything in this mod which interacts with CS diplomacy like that. I would recommend you check with the unique city-state guys

 

[Blue Ghost]

Would it be possible to add some generic bonuses for custom civs that don't have explicit 3UC/4UC support? I'm not currently planning to add 3UC/4UC support for the civs I'm making (though that might change later), and it would be nice if they could be played without falling behind the power differential.

 

[pineappledan]

You should add a trigger for your custom civs, in that case. That's how the other custom civs are adding 4UC compatibility

 

[Blue Ghost]

You should add a trigger for your custom civs, in that case. That's how the other custom civs are adding 4UC compatibility

I meant more along the lines of having a catch-all for all civs that don't have 4UC compatibility. Something to let civs without unique components play on the same field as those with them. The vanilla 3UC/4UC mod added a palace enhancement as a default for any civs that don't have listed unique components. Could we make a similar default bonus for unsupported civs?

 

[Bad_At_Diplomacy]

Assuming you're using EUI, there's a fix for this (at least the Diplomatic Marriage part) in the Unique City States Thread. Unique City-States. Though if you could do me a favor? When you get to the Medieval Era, could you check whether Chanceries provide you paper? I have a similar set-up as you and they don't.

Installed that patch - worked like a charm, thanks!

Also, you are correct, the chanceries do not provide paper.

There isn’t anything in this mod which interacts with CS diplomacy like that. I would recommend you check with the unique city-state guys

Thanks for this mid, it's adding a ton of nuance to the civs.

 

[pineappledan]

I meant more along the lines of having a catch-all for all civs that don't have 4UC compatibility. Something to let civs without unique components play on the same field as those with them. The vanilla 3UC/4UC mod added a palace enhancement as a default for any civs that don't have listed unique components. Could we make a similar default bonus for unsupported civs?

I suppose you could add some general buff, like +1c, +1sc to all cities. Not sure how you would make a default boost to all civs that aren't caught by 4UC though.

4UC would have to create a list of all civs and all modded civs which have 4UC compatibility, and then check if any of those civs is alive. This would require constant updating and adding to the list for whenever a new civ is given 4UC compatibility. I think a better solution is to have modders for modded civs add their own bonuses. That gives them more control, and doesn't require constant maintenance for the 4UC mod.

here's HungryforFood's example for how to add a conditional trigger that works with 4UC

EDIT: update for next version is underway.
- Reworking all units affected by the ZOC change
- Reworking needs reduction changes on all buildings.
- Reworking theming bonuses

 

[Blue Ghost]

I suppose you could add some general buff, like +1c, +1sc to all cities. Not sure how you would make a default boost to all civs that aren't caught by 4UC though.

4UC would have to create a list of all civs and all modded civs which have 4UC compatibility, and then check if any of those civs is alive. This would require constant updating and adding to the list for whenever a new civ is given 4UC compatibility. I think a better solution is to have modders for modded civs add their own bonuses. That gives them more control, and doesn't require constant maintenance for the 4UC mod.

here's HungryforFood's example for how to add a conditional trigger that works with 4UC

EDIT: update for next version is underway.
- Reworking all units affected by the ZOC change
- Reworking needs reduction changes on all buildings.
- Reworking theming bonuses

You can add a table that stores the list of all the current civs with compatibility, and then leave it to modders to add their own civs to the table when they add 4UC compatibility.

 

[pineappledan]

You have writing access to the github, so if you want to add this feature then by all means.

I don't think people will use it that much; it's more likely that if people want to play with 4UC they won't also try adding civs with only 2UCs, but if you feel strongly about it then what's the harm?