3rd and 4th Unique Components for VP - Official thread 88.10

[pineappledan]

Strawpoll here.

Option 1: "Simple" lua change

• On city capture, if building is a national wonder, immediately delete it from the city.
• No other changes
• Rome can still take nevercapture buildings, (monuments, walls, barracks, etc.)
• It will take us a while to add Rome compatibility with all the unique walls, barracks, etc., and to fix all the dummy buildings, but this option leaves Rome almost entirely 'intact' from base VP

Option 2: Remove UB capturing ability entirely and compensate with other bonuses

• Increase the +% for buildings, the number of tiles on city capture, or add some new, slight bonus somewhere else
• Leaves Rome mostly intact, but cuts out a major balance concern: Rome's ability to capture more than twice as many new buildings in 4UC
• Will add stability and make all our code leaner. This is the only option which will actually enhance computer performance

Option 3: Completely overhaul Rome's UA

1. Option 3a: +1 and +1 in your Capital for every City Connection on Empire. +1% production towards buildings in all cities for every City Connection
2. Option 3b: +1 and +1 in every City with a City Connection, and +1% production in your Capital for every City Connection.
3. Option 3c: Something to do with Golden Ages... I dunno. Persia, Brazil, Egypt and Korea make this idea a bit crowded/repetitive.
4. Option 3d: Something else...

Of the options presented, I am still leaning towards option 2... It's easy, it will slim the mod down, it's mostly consistent with base VP, and it directly addresses the largest concerns without over-complicating the solution.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

I voted for "new UA with Production" but I am equally as fine with just having UNWs be destroyed. In fact the more I think about it, the more same-as-now-but-no-UNW seems like the better solution, even if it's more work.

 

[CppMaster]

For the record, I voted for 1 option. It's fun, unique and consistent with base VP.

Options 2, 3a and 3b are thematic, but much more boring than capturing UBs.

 

[FoxOfWar]

Voted for "new UA" because it sounds fun (capital getting better the more cities you have), but I think option 2 also works with just replacing the capture part with some other boost. You can also certainly persuade me with anything that improves performance.

If option 1, while capturing UBs is certainly fun, how many of them cause problems if owned by Rome and not the original civ?

 

[HungryForFood]

Why are you all so convinced that the new Rome UA in VP will be broken? Why not do some testing to confirm that, then do the drastic change (changing UA)? You also realise its not 100% that the new Rome UA will be kept right (even though it seems likely this will be the case)?

Your poll needs a do nothing option to be representative.

 

[pineappledan]

If option 1, while capturing UBs is certainly fun, how many of them cause problems if owned by Rome and not the original civ?

While some are definitely worse than others, since all UNWs give bonus yields to 1-2 buildingclasses on empire, they can have a tremendous effect of Rome's overall economy.

That being said, the Alti Cur, Etemenanki, Hippodrome, Huey Teocalli, and Teutonic Order worry me in particular.
U. of Coimbra, Sachem's Council don't really concern me that much.

Why are you all so convinced that the new Rome UA in VP will be broken? Why not do some testing to confirm that, then do the drastic change (changing UA)? You also realise its not 100% that the new Rome UA will be kept right (even though it seems likely this will be the case)?

A standard game has 8 civs.
4UC gives 8/43 civs a unique national wonder. (total of 12 UNWs in total). Combined 12/43, or more than 1 in 4 civs has a UNW
So, an average game will have 2 or more UNWs
UNWs provide global yields, ie. their yields and abilities are not localized to a single city.
Rome can capture UNWs, and the core cities of the empire all benefit. The yields on these buildings alone can sometimes be equivalent to a free policy.

I simply don't have time in my day to play multiple games in order to convince you of some balance issue to your satistfaction. I'm sorry. If my logic is not satisfactory, and you demand proof in the form of many hours of game time, then we will all be left cold, I'm afraid. Regardless, I have no evidence to suggest that losing days of my life on testing would convince anyone of anything.

Even if I come back with a picture of Rome's capital getting +6 on all colosseums, from capturing the Hippodrome in addition to building his own circus maximus (and +3 on circuses, and all the other Hippodrome bonuses), and +4/+4 on every temple, from capturing Huey Teocalli after building his own Grand Temple (and +2 on Barracks, and the other bonuses from Aztec's wonder), I don't know what a picture will be able to convince you of that I shouldn't be able to convince you of just by describing what will happen.

There also isn't a limit to these. What if someone decides to play on a larger map with 12 civs, and Rome can get 3-4 of these wonders all at the same time?

I'm not doing anything this version. I'm still waiting for @adan_eslavo, who is on vacation, to weigh in. Someone is doing a playthrough photojournal with base VP Rome as we speak, and there's others who have promised to try out the new Rome and report back. People have suggested the possibility of rolling back the changes *if things are unbalanced*, which I understand mostly as a tactic to mollify me, at this point. I don't get the impression I have G's ear nearly to the degree that people like Stalker0 and ElliotS do, who are very much FOR this change.

Your poll needs a do nothing option to be representative.

Paradoxically, the 'Do nothing' option will take way more work than any other option, in this case. If we make Rome operate exactly as it does in base VP, that will require more new lua than any other option, and most negatively affect performance.

 

[phantomaxl1207]

What UB's could Rome have captured before the new beta? I never really knew as I have never tried Rome.

 

[pineappledan]

What UB's could Rome have captured before the new beta? I never really knew as I have never tried Rome.

Rome could capture anything building that wasn't NeverCapture = true, so it's easier to list the things that he couldn't capture.

Barracks - Armory - Military Academy
Walls - Castle - Arsenal - Military Base
Stable
Monument
Courthouse
National Wonders and guilds

4UC components affected: Qila, Barbican, Yassa Court, Barbican, and all the UNWs previously mentioned
Schutzensand, Lamassu and Japan's unique guilds are not affected because they all use SQL only
Ranch is not affected because its only lua triggers on its construction

 

[adan_eslavo]

This Roman changes stink for me. I would just wait for things to resolve. If we do any changes an they just roll everything back then we just loose our time.

 

[CppMaster]

So how does it work now in 3&4UC mod? Rome gets every building except national wonders and guilds, but it also gets unique national wonders and unique guilds?

 

[pineappledan]

So how does it work now in 3&4UC mod? Rome gets every building except national wonders and guilds, but it also gets unique national wonders and unique guilds?

yes

 

[Edaka]

Even if I come back with a picture of Rome's capital getting +6 on all colosseums, from capturing the Hippodrome in addition to building his own circus maximus (and +3 on circuses, and all the other Hippodrome bonuses), and +4/+4 on every temple, from capturing Huey Teocalli after building his own Grand Temple (and +2 on Barracks, and the other bonuses from Aztec's wonder), I don't know what a picture will be able to convince you of that I shouldn't be able to convince you of just by describing what will happen.

Please excuse me, I just want to point out that this shouldn't be possible, I think, with G's latest changes (10-10-2).

I'm tinkering with my code a bit, and I think this solves it:

if (!bCivUnique)
        {
            if (bIsNationalWonder || bProductionMaxed)
                return false;
        }
        else
        {
            if (bIsNationalWonder && getNumBuildings(eBuilding) > 0)
                return false;
            else if (bProductionMaxed)
                return false;
        }

So now Rome is guaranteed to only get a unique national wonder if they do not have it yet. Otherwise they don't get it. So no more rinse-repeat on NW theft.

This is, of course, why I said the code would get complicated quickly. But no one listens to me.

G

 

[pineappledan]

Please excuse me, I just want to point out that this shouldn't be possible, I think, with G's latest changes (10-10-2).

This fix prevents you from being able to capture multiple copies of the same UNW. For instance, You captured the Huey Teocalli ==> make peace with Monty. ==> Monty rebuilds his Huey Teocalli ==> you declare war and capture his new Huey Teocalli. Now all your temples have +6/. That patch specifically fixed that exploit.

That fix prevents you from having 2 NWs of the same Type; it does not prevent you from having 2 different national wonders of the same Class. So, Rome can build Grand Temple, and capture Huey Teocalli, and any other UNWs of the same class (e.g. my Israel mod has a Unique Grand Temple in it too). However, if you capture a unique grand temple, Rome will not be able to build a normal Grand Temple, but if he builds his own before capturing anyone else's it will work just fine.

 

[Edaka]

This fix prevents you from being able to capture multiple copies of the same UNW. For instance, You captured the Huey Teocalli ==> make peace with Monty. ==> Monty rebuilds his Huey Teocalli ==> you declare war and capture his new Huey Teocalli. Now all your temples have +6/. That patch specifically fixed that exploit.

That fix prevents that from happening; it does not prevent you from having 2 different national wonders of the same class. So, Rome can build Grand Temple, and capture Huey Teocalli, and any other UNWs of the same class (e.g. my Israel mod has a Unique Grand Temple in it too). However, if you capture a unique grand temple, Rome will not be able to build a normal Grand Temple, but if he builds his own before capturing anyone else's it will work just fine.

Ooooooh, okay, that makes sense. I'd misunderstood it, then.

 

[infidel88]

When puppeting Russian city, I got stage2 pogost in it. Not as Rome Its not intended, is it?

 

[HungryForFood]

A standard game has 8 civs.
4UC gives 8/43 civs a unique national wonder. (total of 12 UNWs in total). Combined 12/43, or more than 1 in 4 civs has a UNW...

...There also isn't a limit to these. What if someone decides to play on a larger map with 12 civs, and Rome can get 3-4 of these wonders all at the same time?

My point is you should test your hypothesis. At the moment, you are convinced by a hunch that it will be OP. I am not saying if it will be or it won't, just that you should confirm this.

Paradoxically, the 'Do nothing' option will take way more work than any other option, in this case. If we make Rome operate exactly as it does in base VP, that will require more new lua than any other option, and most negatively affect performance.

Perhaps 'no change' is the better phrasing. Of course, if the UA change breaks your lua, you should fix it.

 

[infidel88]

My point is you should test your hypothesis. At the moment, you are convinced by a hunch that it will be OP. I am not saying if it will be or it won't, just that you should confirm this.

Not every hypothesis has to be confirmed in action to prove it being correct/wrong. Like you don't have to jump from 40m building to prove you are a mortal.

Current change to Rome has much more impact to 4UC mod, as Rome is capturing more unique (and powerful) stuff. If you play this mod, you should know what MAY happen. Yes, it will not hapen every game, but sometimes it will. That's why Spain got rid of vanilla double earth wonders yields, as with great barrier reef or solomon mines nearby, game was broken. Assumption 'this may work, let's give it a shot' is much worse than doubting everything. In general

 

[adan_eslavo]

I can only recommend staying with 9-23 till the next update of vp. This version is well adjusted for our mod. If you play 10-10 then you risk gamebreaking.

This update is pain in tha a*s for us and every modder. If we listened Jarulas walls of text describing how Roman UCs should look like then Rome would have twice as much potential as it has now. Unfortunately @Gazebo did such changes to quiet those screams on forum complaining how underpowered Rome is. I hope this will end up in reverting changes. There is not good way to fix this. If we change UA then people will not play the mod saying it nerfs Rome too much, and they want original one.

If things will not change then the best thing will be manual deletion those overpowered buildings via lua to not interfere much into gameplay. Changing totally UA via sql abilities seems to be good but people will shout at you immediately. I saw @pineappledan 's arguments on main 10-10 thread and I agreed with him in 100%.

I have no time to do anything with that now at least for a week more. I will wait. We will see what happen next. Im sick of this. Rome is our curse since the beginnings of this mod.

 

[pineappledan]

My point is you should test your hypothesis. At the moment, you are convinced by a hunch that it will be OP. I am not saying if it will be or it won't, just that you should confirm this.

This is equivalent to telling me the only way for me to convince a flat earther that the world is round is for ME to circumnavigate the globe myself. If you aren't convinced by me describing what might happen, then by all means buy your plane ticket and put in the time. It's not a good use of my time to spend 10+ hours convincing you of something you can test yourself.

 

[Mad Madigan]

Just popping in to say that I've been playing 3/4UC with the 9-23 version of VP and I've been loving the heck out it! So much fun!

I think the recent Rome change was unwarranted, but that's neither here nor there. I wanted to make the team aware of a bug that I've posted previously on Github making a return: Egypt's AI doesn't appear to recognize Flax resources that spawn on tiles they have already improved. Just finishing up my 3rd game with Egypt as an opponent AI and they never go back and replace Farms that have Flax spawn under them once the Nilometer is built into Plantations. Strangely, if another AI conquers an Egyptian city they will usually go an replace the farms on Flax with plantations, but Egypt just leaves their initial farms in place. Is this just a quirk of the AI in general, or is there something different about Egypt's "encouragement" to improve tiles?

Also, Flax isn't showing up on the list of Monopolies when I view the Monopoly/Corporation UI (when using the EUI version of VP), so I can never see how many copies of Flax there are or what percentage Egypt still has (assuming they have lost cities) without manually counting.