3rd and 4th Unique Components for VP - Official thread 88.10

[Enrico Swagolo]

Playing Germany and I don't like the Teutonic Order. What I dislike is the conversion is as much a positive as it is negative. Spanish one is mostly going to be positive as it spares you from using Faith, but this one means you have to spend one on Missionary (and Inquisitor if Holy to remove pressure), and you might have to spend MORE Faith than if such an ability didn't exist. What I mean is Inquisitoring border cities can get you many converts, while Missionaring them is less generous. It also takes away the possibility of conquering a border city of another religion, getting the enemy religion building up before converting it to yours to get a stronger city overall. If you conquer something far away where you have to get your religion up with Inquisitors + Missionaries regularly, it just means your city won't get any religion-related bonuses for a long time.

I had also considered adding some military supply cap, maybe +10% of population in city? Either replace the CS, or just add it on top

Effectively the Tambo would give:
22
5
5HP healing
+15% worker improvement speed, as soon as you have 2 on empire
2+ on the first Tambo on empire
a tradeable luxury resource, and an almost guaranteed monopoly, which unlocks a corporation (Trader Sid's, probably)

Thankfully, It's hard to compare this to Gumey and burial tomb because you don't know how much gold you can get with trading your resources. It's more comparable to the Candi, no?
I'm a big fan of putting 0 culture/science on this thing, I think the UBs are overreliant on those...

Incan one seems ok, but I suggest a nerf to Gumey anyway. Songhai runs away every single time I see them and they don't start next to me. It's a Culture + Production + Gold + military bonus civ in vanilla, and it gets even more Production, Culture and Gold.

 

[pineappledan]

Incan one seems ok, but I suggest a nerf to Gumey anyway. Songhai runs away every single time I see them and they don't start next to me. It's a Culture + Production + Gold + military bonus civ in vanilla, and it gets even more Production, Culture and Gold.

The Songhai Gumey got nerfed. Hard. Harder than it deserved, in my estimation.

I'm not nerfing it anymore; this is plainly just an axe to grind at this point.

 

[adan_eslavo]

@pineappledan I noticed major changes during my absence. Many simplifications.

• I understand that new Koa and Shotelai code uses new mechanics used for Naval units introduced in 10-10?
• Pogost was still bugged? How it is now?
• How MC performes after moving lua to sql? Is whole description tooltip invisible like before?
• Prau got serious nerf? What he got instead? It supposed to be early Naval Recon unit. Without visibility it is not such.
• Fale lost its faith bonus totally. Why not decreasing it by 2 to only 1 faith?
• Move after attack was modified. Does it affect other units?

When do you want to push that update? Is it ready?

 

[pineappledan]

I understand that new Koa and Shotelai code uses new mechanics used for Naval units introduced in 10-10?

Yup! no need for lua for those units anymore. No way to remove the lua from dromon though, since it's ranged, so I have left it as is.

Pogost was still bugged? How it is now?

No real changes to gameplay

Other civs could capture stages 2 and 3, even if they weren't Rome. This could have been resolved by simply adding NeverCapture=1 to stages 2 and 3, but I took it as an opportunity to slim the building down. No balance changes, just fewer icons in city view now, and it resolves the issue with capturing

How MC performes after moving lua to sql? Is whole description tooltip invisible like before?

The UI works, but now scales off the religion and policies of whoever owns the tile, so not necessarily Ethiopia. This means players need to spread a religion to their cities in order to get their bonuses

Prau got serious nerf? What he got instead? It supposed to be early Naval Recon unit. Without visibility it is not such.

The newest naval promotion trees put +1 vision and +1 sight onto a single promotion, so Sentry is now a free promotion not otherwise available to ships. I elected to remove the +1 vision, rather than have the ship be capable to stacking so much vision and movement.

Fale lost its faith bonus totally. Why not decreasing it by 2 to only 1 faith?

Because I don't think we ever intended to make Polynesia a faith civ. However, they were consistently founding, and pulling very far ahead in the games that I had played against them. The other yields on construction are more than enough, and no reason to have 1 yield which is slightly lower than the others.

Move after attack was modified. Does it affect other units?

To my knowledge, it will have no gameplay effects, because every mounted and naval unit gets the promotion in the entire promotion line. The only case I can think of with a single unit in a unit class getting the promotion is here.

When do you want to push that update? Is it ready?

Waiting on new update of base VP, then we can see how to implement the promised Rome change, and modify the other affected buildings.

In the meantime, there's more issues to clear on the github, and I proposed a change to Inca's UB, which I would like yours and Hinin's opinions on.

 

[Hinin]

I proposed a change to Inca's UB, which I would like yours and Hinin's opinions on.

The idea itself seems good. I'm just curious : what changed that made you reconsider the feasability of this UB. If I remember well, your last version of the Tambo wasn't so much different, and yet we chose something else for it seemed overly complicated to make. What solution have you found ?

 

[pineappledan]

The idea itself seems good. I'm just curious : what changed that made you reconsider the feasability of this UB. If I remember well, your last version of the Tambo wasn't so much different, and yet we chose something else for it seemed overly complicated to make. What solution have you found ?

nothing has changed except our imaginations.

When this idea was first proposed I knew I wanted the coca resource to A) be part of the design, and B) be retained on conquest by another civ. We thought of various ways to do this, but none of them worked how we wanted to:
- Making the coca an improvable resource that spawns on construction would be a copy of the Candi, and eat up valuable terrace farm tiles
- Having the coca spawn below the city would replace any existing resource, and might interact with mountains weird
- adding some strange lua would require too many complications for if a city was reconquered, or secondarily conquered

What we hadn’t considered was simply adding a free coca resource via a free unique building class. If the qullqa was made a unique building and was always captured, then it solves all the problems we were running into.

 

[adan_eslavo]

I fixed few new issues on Github (Pogost, MonoChurch, Gumey). One more needs to be resolved, but I have no time for looking for it:

16 values for 15 columns

 

[CasusAmor]

Hi! I'm new to the forum and just made an account to say thanks for making this possible.

Besides that I've been getting a bug lately. Enabling just Vox Populi with EUI via the installer, and this mod makes all options and subtitles in character diplomatic screens (like when you meet other civs for the first time) invisible. I've tried using Vox Populi with no EUI and I did not encounter this issue. Has this been encountered before? Or is this just me and my stupidity?

 

[pineappledan]

Are you using the 5-20 version of VP? I would recommend you download v32.2 of this mod, or update your version of VP to 9-25 or later.

 

[adan_eslavo]

This is like nightmare. I made slight modification to the description on download link:

@pineappledan Did you find source of the bug I wrote you last time?

 

[pineappledan]

@pineappledan Did you find source of the bug I wrote you last time?

Yeah, I missed adding the IsDummy column to the celtic dummy buildings. Just committed the fix.

Regarding the Gumey fix you just posted. Would it be easier if we just used the HasGlobalMonopoly() function? G's lua code does something similar here; it seems less clunky than what we are doing

 

[adan_eslavo]

I used code from Gumey in current TO beta version I'm working on. I would leave it. It is fairly simple.

local fRatio = (pPlayer:GetNumResourceTotal(iResource, false) + pPlayer:GetResourceExport(iResource)) / Map.GetNumResources(iResource)
local bGlobalMonopoly = fRatio > 0.5
local bStrategicMonopoly = fRatio > 0.25

 

[CasusAmor]

Are you using the 5-20 version of VP? I would recommend you download v32.2 of this mod, or update your version of VP to 9-25 or later.

Thank you. I wasn't aware the 9/25 version of VP was available.

 

[pineappledan]

Yes, you are using an out of date version of VP. You need to actually read my answer.

You have two options:
either need to use 32.2 of 3/4UC with v.5-20 VP
Use 37.4 of 3/4UC, and install v.10-10 VP

This question has been asked a lot. Literacy!

 

[pineappledan]

I’m working on an update which includes:
- optimization for all building/improvement lua — adds a check for If a civ is in the game at the start, and only includes lua hooks for those civs
- adds new Rome compatibility for Mongolia, Poland, maya, and India
- replaces intihuatana with tambo/qullqa

G has stated he will push a new version tonight or tomorrow. I will add the promised Rome capture settings as soon as he does.

@adan_eslavo, if I leave it at that, can you update the civ5proj file when you push a new version? That should be all that’s needed

EDIT: Also, could the next version have a min.version for prerequisite VPs? That would block people trying to use the mod from versions prior to 10-10:
(3) City-State Diplomacy Mod for CBP - minversion = 27
(4) C4DF - CBP - minversion = 11
(5) More Luxuries - CBO Edition - minversion = 155

 

[Galbias]

I'm not sure about the Hippodrome. WLTKD in all cities for 80 turns total is nice, but 6 turns of Anarchy over the course of the game is actually a pretty significant malus total and I'm not sure it's worth it. If you go with all the boost to WLTKD that are available in every city (Theocratic Rule, Synagogues, Burghers from Fealty; there's also Mausoleum but Byzantium is going to have a hard time getting that) it's about 15% boost to everything for 10 turns, so 150% bonus yields, your net gain from the 11-turn process each new era is 50% of a turn's yields. Actually less than that, because you won't always have Burghers and Synagogues in every city, and you'll have other % modifiers that only stack additively with the WLTKD bonuses, not to mention any gain you might get is backloaded.

This is less important but I also question whether significant WLTKD bonuses are fitting on Byzantium since to me, their identity is a religious Civilization that can do basically anything it wants with its religion, whereas Hippodrome currently pushes them very heavily towards Theocratic Rule and Synagogues, though it does fit the building thematically. I'm not sure what would be a good thing to replace it with though, aside from maybe a flat chunk of yields when you enter a new era or something.

Anyways, maybe something like 1-2 turns of Anarchy after the Hippodrome itself is built and then 5 turns of WLTKD when entering new era? Or Barbarians spawning near the capital if you want to keep a negative effect on entering a new era might work too.

 

[pineappledan]

Byzantium’s entire jam is religion, and religion touches every single game mechanic somewhere. We didn’t want to double down on faith generation or spread because it would be just more of the same. We also had the task of adding something historically relevant to the real Byzantium. WLTKD was hopefully a way to get away from religious boosts, and to have only marginal direct interactions with a couple tenets at most.

There’s no right answer. At least WLTKDs as a core strategy don’t compound any of the pre-existing Byzantium strategies. At the very least, we added a new play style dimension.

Even your idea of flat yields interacts with way of transcendence

 

[pineappledan]

I made a pull request on github. I’m currently testing it. Something with the qullqa is causing a freeze. Don’t merge yet.

 

[adan_eslavo]

What is qullqa?

 

[pineappledan]

Qullqa: Incan storage silo.
A free qullqa is constructed when a Tambo is completed. Provides +2food, +2 production, and a free Coca Resource