[Extension] 3rd and 4th Unique Components for VP - Official thread 88.10

[Enrico Swagolo]

Did you find the UB "nicely" powerful or "game-changing, pls nerf" strong ?



It is a unit made for fighting against other planes and triggering your UA (it softens the target and gives combat bonus), so maybe you were at a point in the game where you were so dominant that it was indeed not that useful. Am I right, or do you think it's something else ?

Aye, you're right, it was too late for SPAD to matter because I was balling beyond any control even 50 turns ago - and now, several Great Writer pops later, it was ultra balling. As can be seen, with all the policies and Gold I could buy as many units as I could thanks to the discounts. I think it'd be better if I was behind the enemy, not the other way around because as it was, Red Fort Delhi took only 3 turns to break with all the super Cruisers boosted by everything possible, Infantry, Artillery and several Bombers and Spads.

Concerning UB, it's hard to say. I was already balling at that point with fully filled Artistry and tons of Great Works. I can't say if it's broken because the game was already pretty much, and it's impact is hard to say. Industrial era UB should be strong, but if it's too much I don't know. It is either the best or second best, maybe behind Austrian UB if there's a ton of allied CS. It didn't feel broken, but it is among the brightest of it's era.

 

[Guynemer]

Spoiler :

View attachment 516711

What in the god damn...

Mon Dieu.

 

[Hinin]

I find SPAD to not shine when you are already very ahead. When you're ahead, you have a lot of options available to you like highly promoted Artillery and other units. These UU really shine when you lack units and need to defend against an enemy. They help you fend off larger forces easier if you have a decent number of them and know how to deal with air combat. For instance, you might be fighting a war on one front and lack troops on another and someone attacked you there. The SPAD will help you wound far more units and slow or even halt their advances until you get more reinforcements.

Aye, you're right, it was too late for SPAD to matter because I was balling beyond any control even 50 turns ago - and now, several Great Writer pops later, it was ultra balling. As can be seen, with all the policies and Gold I could buy as many units as I could thanks to the discounts. I think it'd be better if I was behind the enemy, not the other way around because as it was, Red Fort Delhi took only 3 turns to break with all the super Cruisers boosted by everything possible, Infantry, Artillery and several Bombers and Spads.

What are your opinions on what should be the impact of such a late-game (so end of industrial era + modern era + atomic era units) ? When compared to the impact a unit such as the Pracinha (which gives tourism on kill, and so is meant to end the game) or the Yamato (which is extremely powerful in exchange of giving yields to the enemy when killed), isn't the SPAD a bit too bland or unnoticeable ?

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

What in the god damn...

Mon Dieu.

This is the might of the baguette, behold it's unmatched cultural power. I think I had like 5000+% Tourism influence over England in the end.

What are your opinions on what should be the impact of such a late-game (so end of industrial era + modern era + atomic era units) ? When compared to the impact a unit such as the Pracinha (which gives tourism on kill, and so is meant to end the game) or the Yamato (which is extremely powerful in exchange of giving yields to the enemy when killed), isn't the SPAD a bit too bland or unnoticeable ?

I think a Modern Era+ unit should go something like this - click with the mouse on an unit it's meant to traditionally counter, it's gone. Click on something that should be countering it, it's trading equally. Click on an unit of the same class, it's wrecking it but not one-shotting. Panzer sort-of meets this requirement, and I still am less than impressed - if Germany falls behind, the enemies have their own Tanks which aren't that much worse - if it's ahead, it doesn't do much.
Alternatively, it should support some sort of a victory for the civ while still being good at fighting, like producing some sort of yield that you want, like by producing good yields.

And yeah, SPAD is bland, but I didn't even notice it can attack twice. That adds some impact to the UA, but that's most useful on cities, which a bomber will likely deal more damage to with the promotions. I didn't compare, there was only Delhi to take down.

 

[pineappledan]

This certainly is a conundrum.

The SPAD was designed in a time when fighters could basically do everything a bomber could do at least 70% as well, and much more besides. The 3 latest patches have made fighters a more limited instrument. While I think the change was necessary, it forces us to reassess what it is that the SPAD should do.

Right now, the SPAD is still pretty great. It increases the number of number of hits a single city or carrier can deliver in a single turn from 10 to 20, and in a larger radius. That will blunt the spear, of any advance, but it's not terribly useful if you are the aggressor, away from your cities, and it doesn't help you in a protracted siege. Logistics allows you to frontload a lot of violence in a short number of turns, but air units are limited by their ability to repair, not by their number of attacks.

I like having the lower RCS on SPAD. It's a great historical nod and there is precedent for it with how the Chu Ko Nu is weaker than the crossbow. SPAD is currently 3 RCS lower than the base triplane.

Proposal 1:
Increase RCS to 43, 2 less than triplane
Remove bonus AirInterceptRange (currently +1 from triplane's range of 5)
Give Range as a free promotion (+2 range, stays on upgrade)

Proposal 2:
Keep SPAD at 42 RCS and 6 Range
Give Air Evasion I as a free promotion (25% chance to evade interception)

Proposal 3:
Do nothing
France is great. If one of its UCs is a bit of a dud, then that's for the best

So proposal 1 is to double-down on traditional fighter mechanics, proposal 2 is to make normal fighter attacks double as a quasi air sweep action. This will make SPAD far more aggressively positioned, if it can dish out damage while also clearing interceptions.
Proposal 3 is to accept that France has a great kit already and doesn't need our help.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

I think France's kit is already very, very good and SPADghetti needs no buffetti.

 

[Hinin]

I agree with solution 3. I just wanted to make things clear because of the recent VP and MUCfVP updates.

 

[amateurgamer88]

What are your opinions on what should be the impact of such a late-game (so end of industrial era + modern era + atomic era units) ? When compared to the impact a unit such as the Pracinha (which gives tourism on kill, and so is meant to end the game) or the Yamato (which is extremely powerful in exchange of giving yields to the enemy when killed), isn't the SPAD a bit too bland or unnoticeable ?

I find late-game to be quite difficult to balance. For good players who can really unlock the full potentials of UU, UI and UB, they tend to finish or almost finish the game by the late game. For bad players like me, it's learning how to best utilize them but I doubt I can unlock the full potential of any of these UC. I personally like SPAD where it is because I can see its potential. As @pineappledan said, the recent patches changes Fighters a fair bit. I don't know what changes are best until I get more air combat with the recent changes. As of the moment, I'd say they are at a good spot.

 

[Hinin]

I find late-game to be quite difficult to balance. For good players who can really unlock the full potentials of UU, UI and UB, they tend to finish or almost finish the game by the late game. For bad players like me, it's learning how to best utilize them but I doubt I can unlock the full potential of any of these UC. I personally like SPAD where it is because I can see its potential. As @pineappledan said, the recent patches changes Fighters a fair bit. I don't know what changes are best until I get more air combat with the recent changes. As of the moment, I'd say they are at a good spot.

That's also my opinion on the subject : the later a UC comes into play, the higher the chance the game is already finished one way or another.
I currently don't see a way to make the SPAD more relevant without obtaining a far less accurate representation of what it was historically or reworking the UM2 entirely (which would be more troubles than it is worth).
The French UA synergizes already quite well with the French kit, which gives a very nice amount of a lot of yields, so let's wait a bit to see if other people complain about the SPAD before tearing the place apart.

 

[black213]

I've finally had the time to try out v40. Haven't had a single issue regarding performance, even on huge maps with over 20 civs (never dared to try that prior to v40 due to hang-ups), my computer can now handle it without constant restarts. Nice

 

[pineappledan]

V41 has even more performance improvements!

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Yeah, VP vanilla and 4UC performance improvements combined effectively eliminated my crashes, so there's that. No way I could play as comfortably 350-390 turns in as I did with my France playthrough just a few versions ago, so it is a huge enhancement that drove me to actually finishing that game (that it was also very fun helped).

 

[Mad Madigan]

I can guess the answer to this, but I'll ask anyway just in case, but are saves started with v40 compatible with v41? I don't get much time to play these days, and I'm weighing finishing my current v40 game or starting over again with v41 if it's not backwards compatible.

 

[pineappledan]

No.
v41 relies on the 01-29 .dll to work

 

[Jiggly]

Hi wonderful mod btw. I wanted to ask a question and report a possible bug:

1) I am using v.39, with most recent voxpopuli/beta version. can I update to version 41 with saved game compatibility or is restart required.

2) I am playing as Russia, and newly founded cities (after lv 3 architecture technology researched) are building double Pogost and upgrading improperly and giving me the lv3 Pogost and the lv2 Pogost buildings with the overlapping culture/faith/gold and the extra specialist. The Pogosts that upgraded from lv1-3 naturally before the new techs are fine. Is this supposed to happen, and if not, is there anyway I can get rid of the extra pogost without restarting game cause i feel like im cheating, but im way too far into marathon game to restart.

Thanks for the support!

 

[Cebrudras]

Tried out Arabia and the Madrasah seems to only generate the GP yields in the capital in my game. Shouldnt every city with it get the yields?

 

[pineappledan]

1) I am using v.39, with most recent voxpopuli/beta version. can I update to version 41 with saved game compatibility or is restart required.

Nope. restart would be required if you switch to v41

2) I am playing as Russia, and newly founded cities (after lv 3 architecture technology researched) are building double Pogost and upgrading improperly and giving me the lv3 Pogost and the lv2 Pogost buildings with the overlapping culture/faith/gold and the extra specialist. The Pogosts that upgraded from lv1-3 naturally before the new techs are fine. Is this supposed to happen, and if not, is there anyway I can get rid of the extra pogost without restarting game cause i feel like im cheating, but im way too far into marathon game to restart.

Not intended. I'll take a look at it. Thanks for the bug report.

Tried out Arabia and the Madrasah seems to only generate the GP yields in the capital in my game. Shouldnt every city with it get the yields?

Yes, every city should... I'll try to replicate later this week

Thanks for reporting these bugs

 

[amateurgamer88]

I want to get the take of other people's opinion on the Babylonian UNW. For my current game on King difficulty, Babylon is ahead 8 techs ahead of me while only a single policy ahead. I can't imagine what they are like on higher difficulties. Does this mean that Babylon AI has a higher priority of investing in buildings? Or does the extra Science for their monuments just help them snowball faster? Overall, I like the idea but I wonder if the percentage is very high. For instance, we can have a Tradition Babylon that expands when there are lots of room. All those cities provide more buildings to invest in and that capital will be producing Science like it was nothing.

I also feel like Babylon can be very well covered if you go Progress. Expertise give you Culture and Food upon building completion while the UNW gives you Science and Food upon investing in buildings. The Food gives you Gold once you complete Progress. The Gold and improved infrastructure then helps provide you with lots of Production. Is Babylon supposed to have no weak spot when going for Progress or am I missing something?

 

[pineappledan]

I may have overbuffed Babylon in an earlier version. Heh.

And yeah, the UNW definitely doubles down on the progress synergies. I really enjoy that aspect of their kit.

 

[pineappledan]

@Jiggly, replace pogost.lua in your Russia folder with this. Should be savegame compatible.

I'll post a hotfix tomorrow; it's late and I'm sleepy

@Cebrudas, I just checked your bug with Arabia:
If you have 2 cities with Madrasas in ancient, then expend a GP, you will get 10// in the capital (5*2=10). So, you are getting the full value of the yields, but the dll funnels them all into your capital. So it is working, but not as intended.

Thanks to Cebrudas' astute observation, we know that local yields like / will get funneled into your capital if you use GPExpend for yields. I will remove the in the coming hotfix; it was not my intention to hand Arabia a hammer burst tool that players can time with impunity. This makes wonder-spamming a bit too easy. Arabia can make do with just 5/ on expend