3rd and 4th Unique Components for VP - Official thread 88.10

[amateurgamer88]

Well, I personally don't mind seeing Austria buffed a bit. However, what's difficult to balance is how the AI will fare. Austria does well in some of my games and poorly in others. For the Austrian AI, I think they are at a good place, though they are fairly one dimensional with their kit solely focused on CS.

With Germany, I don't mind seeing a nerf with that UNW. When I look at its kit, we basically have a civ that gets Science and Culture from CS, Production, Tourism, Science and Gold from the Hanse along with a noticeable amount of Faith from the TO. Oh yes, there's also the extra delegates which, while not as powerful as the Austrian UA, isn't to be underestimated. The Faith can then cover any other weakness like Great People generation or any victory you wish to pursue. While it seems all rounded, I see this as a civ with too many bonuses put into one and lack any sort of weaknesses. I can only imagine how bad this AI can be on Deity with all those bonuses.

 

[Bhawb]

FWIW, I think Austria is fine. I have consistently seen them at the top of the scoreboard and actively competing for winning unless they get completely shredded early. OTOH Germany often just gets railed early on and does nothing. I can't actually think of a game where Germany was competing to win tbh.

 

[pineappledan]

I can only think of 1 game where Germany really pulled ahead, and it was when I was initially testing Canada. Bismarck very clearly had the best settling location though. I’ve had a few games with Austria and she has always been middling.

 

[FoxOfWar]

FWIW, I think both Germany and Austria are fine. Late-game snowballs are fun, and neither is amazing in the early-mid game.

Germany still is not amazing with UU's (one is very early and one very late, leaving huge swathes of time when everyone else's UU's shine), but balances quite nicely with powerful ability and buildings - assuming you can get some city-state alliances rolling. Slaganz' usefulness is also rather start-dependant, as the closer your neighbours are the less barbarians you have there to kill. Against other civs, Slaganz is a +1 CS Warrior, after all.

Kind of the same with Austria - if something jeopardises your city-state alliances early, you're up the creek without a paddle until mid-game at least where you can leverage your army better to liberate them / destroy the Greeces of the world. 'Course if you can snowball to marrying all the city-states, you'll be popping great people every turn... the trick is to get there in the first place though.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

I think Germany's not OP. TO is a bit late and doesn't feel OP. It's Faith can be great, but it being late (classical) means religion is easier but far from guaranteed. The Warrior is absolutely bad without sufficient barbies nearby, though it does work as an ancient era emissary thanks to low production cost - I often spam them to gift to CSs, granting me benefits + working with UA. Great synergy, but they're not all that good without Barbies.

What about Kabuki? I still like an idea that incorporates some vassal benefits to it. I'm also not a fan of how the guild bonus could just as well be stuck on the Kabuki itself (can't work the GWAM specs without guilds anyway, and Japanese UA means no guild = won't ever spawn a GWAM, even with +5 GWAM points). The idea below is fairly unique (vassal/conquest) but I don't know about it's possibility.

UB - Kabuki Theater (replaces Opera House):
available at Acoustics
450 Production Cost (-150)
does not require an Amphitheater
+3 Culture
+5% Culture
+33% Great Musician Points
+1 Gold to all Musicians' Guilds
1 Great Work of Music Slot
50 Culture Whenever an Internal Trade Route To or From this city is completed, scaling with Era
+2 to every Kabuki for every vassal owned by Japan
Replaces each of the Guilds with a unique Japanese version of that Building on construction

UB - Gagaku Guild (replaces Musicians' Guild):
+2 Faith to Musician and Civil Servant Specialists
+5 Great Musician Points
+2 to Gagaku for every Civilisation you're Influential over.
2 Musician Specialist Slots
1 Specialist in this city does not generate unhappiness from urbanization

UB - Monogatari Guild (replaces Writers' Guild):
+2 Gold to Writer Specialists
+5 Great Writer Points
+2 to Monogatari for every three Great Works in your empire.
2 Writer Specialist Slots
1 Specialist in this city does not generate unhappiness from urbanization

UB - Ukiyo-e Guild (replaces Artists' Guild):
+2 Science to Artist Specialists
+5 Great Artist Points
+2 to each Ukiyo-e for every Capital you own (including yours?).
2 Artist Specialist Slots
1 Specialist in this city does not generate unhappiness from urbanization

Kabuki bonus for each Guild removed.

 

[pineappledan]

I think Germany's not OP. TO is a bit late and doesn't feel OP. It's Faith can be great, but it being late (classical) means religion is easier but far from guaranteed. The Warrior is absolutely bad without sufficient barbies nearby, though it does work as an ancient era emissary thanks to low production cost - I often spam them to gift to CSs, granting me benefits + working with UA. Great synergy, but they're not all that good without Barbies.

What about Kabuki? I still like an idea that incorporates some vassal benefits to it. I'm also not a fan of how the guild bonus could just as well be stuck on the Kabuki itself (can't work the GWAM specs without guilds anyway, and Japanese UA means no guild = won't ever spawn a GWAM, even with +5 GWAM points). The idea below is fairly unique (vassal/conquest) but I don't know about it's possibility.

UB - Kabuki Theater (replaces Opera House):
available at Acoustics
450 Production Cost (-150)
does not require an Amphitheater
+3 Culture
+5% Culture
+33% Great Musician Points
+1 Gold to all Musicians' Guilds
1 Great Work of Music Slot
50 Culture Whenever an Internal Trade Route To or From this city is completed, scaling with Era
+2 to every Kabuki for every vassal owned by Japan
Replaces each of the Guilds with a unique Japanese version of that Building on construction

UB - Gagaku Guild (replaces Musicians' Guild):
+2 Faith to Musician and Civil Servant Specialists
+5 Great Musician Points
+2 to Gagaku for every Civilisation you're Influential over.
2 Musician Specialist Slots
1 Specialist in this city does not generate unhappiness from urbanization

UB - Monogatari Guild (replaces Writers' Guild):
+2 Gold to Writer Specialists
+5 Great Writer Points
+2 to Monogatari for every three Great Works in your empire.
2 Writer Specialist Slots
1 Specialist in this city does not generate unhappiness from urbanization

UB - Ukiyo-e Guild (replaces Artists' Guild):
+2 Science to Artist Specialists
+5 Great Artist Points
+2 to each Ukiyo-e for every Capital you own (including yours?).
2 Artist Specialist Slots
1 Specialist in this city does not generate unhappiness from urbanization

Kabuki bonus for each Guild removed.

I'm not opposed to changing the Kabuki, but:
A) That is an ass-load of new code, and we have been trying to slim down.
B) Kabuki theaters have nothing to do with military and the other 4 aspects of Japan's kit do
C) It's 3 buildings max on empire, making them semi-wonders. There has to be something we can do with that without creating 5 new lua codes.
D)Fighting, yes. Conquest, no. Those are basically the rules of Japan's design. Nothing in Japan's kit actually requires you to conquer anything in order to benefit, and I think that's a cool part of their kit I would like to preserve

One of the things that keeps me worried about adding something to Austria is that it would likely be some bonus to the Schutzenstand. G has been on a tear, loading the base arsenal with tons of bonuses every consequtive patch, which make Schutzenstand in every city even more of an obvious plus. They got the range/indirect fire bonus now, block spy action, lower empire unhappiness modifier, The Arsenal might still technically be a niche building, but just looking at all the things that a Schutzenstand already does, I'm worried about adding more.

What about adding +1 GMusician point to Regimentsmarsche's bonus and making Landwehr a little cheaper?

On another track, I am thinking I will rename the Slaganz to Ulfhedinn, which is an actual thing that existed. Slaganz, as far as I can tell, is made up malarky.

 

[amateurgamer88]

For Austria, a slight increase to the Military Supply Cap from Population for the Schutzenstand and lowering the maintenance a bit might be enough. If I go tall, supply is going to be an issue which really limits how much Production you can get out of it. Since it's advisable to build in every city while also being fairly expensive, lowering the maintenance makes more sense. Even the Russian Ostrog costs 5 Gold maintenance.

GMusician point to the Regimentsmarsche is nice too since that Culture is too small of a bonus to really notice. I do agree that Austria doesn't need big buffs but small changes can be nice.

 

[pineappledan]

I'll increase the regimenstmarsche to +2, remove the +50HP, and increase the per on Stanschutzen to 25% (from 15%).

 

[Legen]

I'm not opposed to changing the Kabuki, but:
A) That is an ass-load of new code, and we have been trying to slim down.
B) Kabuki theaters have nothing to do with military and the other 4 aspects of Japan's kit do
C) It's 3 buildings max on empire, making them semi-wonders. There has to be something we can do with that without creating 5 new lua codes.
D)Fighting, yes. Conquest, no. Those are basically the rules of Japan's design. Nothing in Japan's kit actually requires you to conquer anything in order to benefit, and I think that's a cool part of their kit I would like to preserve

What about the 50 on ITR end, did you get some use from that?
I’ll remove the building prerequisite, but I’d rather not mess with tech unlock. The Yamato is moved forward too, after all.
Instead, I think we should have a bit more fun with the Unique guilds than we are currently:
Remove the +1 yield to kabuki from all guilds
New bonuses:
Gagaku: -2% policy cost for every Monogatari on Empire
Monogatari: 1 and 1 for every Kabuki on Empire (3 total on kabuki)
Ukiyo-e: -3% building maintenance on empire

Discuss

Japan incentivizes the player to generate GG/GA and to level up, but the boosts for these are heavily concentrated on the UUs, Samurai and Yamato. It would make sense for the kabuki to affect GG/GA/leveling in some form, even if just as some extra xp or an extra promotion (e.g. Quick Study) for units trained in the city.

Another thing is how the kabuki is supposed to help with cultural victory, which is what you'd expect from a unique that affects all guilds. Japan's UA makes the +5 alone a weak contribution for that if the player is doing well with GG/GA. I think it would make sense for each guild to provide an instant amount of yields whenever a GMAW is born, as if you had partially bulbed one. For instance:

Gagaku: Whenever a great musician is born in the empire, gain tourism equal to X% of the musician's tourism value.
Monogatari: Whenever a great writer is born in the empire, gain culture equal to X% of the writer's culture value.
Ukiyo-e: Whenever a great artist is born in the empire, gain golden age points equal to X% of the artist's GAP value.

Essentially, the guilds are boosting the value Japan can get from each GWAM born, favoring quality over quantity, which is in line with the japanese culture. It could even replace the +5 part to emphasize it, if desired. How much extra value per guild can be adjusted as you see fit.

 

[pineappledan]

If you can find me a lua code that the math for that, or a value, a GP expend hook is undemanding and easy to do.

EDIT: I think I found them, but it needs testing. Stay tuned

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

That idea is pretty entertaining, but can the Guilds give the +5 points not to their cities (it'll be very likely worthless outside of Kyoto), but to the capital? The number can be even reduced to 3/4, it'll still be a buff. This way, the points might accumulate to a bonus person during a game much more eeffectively.

 

[pineappledan]

Here's what I am testing right now:

Spoiler New Japan Kabuki :

UB - Kabuki Theater (replaces Opera House):

available at Acoustics
600 Production Cost
does not require an Amphitheater
+5 Culture
+5% Culture
+33% Great Musician Points
+1 Gold to all Musician/Gagaku Guilds on Empire
1 Great Work of Music Slot
50 Culture Whenever an Internal Trade Route To or From this city is completed, scaling with Era
Replaces each of the Guilds with a unique Japanese version of that Building on construction
​

UB - Gagaku Guild (replaces Musicians' Guild):

+2 Faith to Musician Specialists
+5 Great Musician Points
2 Musician Specialist Slots
1 Specialist in this city does not generate unhappiness from urbanization
Whenever a Great Musician is born, 300 Tourism and 10% of the potential Tourism from a Concert Tour is instantly granted as Faith​

UB - Monogatari Guild (replaces Writers' Guild):

+2 Gold to Writer Specialists
+5 Great Writer Points
2 Writer Specialist Slots
1 Specialist in this city does not generate unhappiness from urbanization
Whenever a Great Writer is born, 10% of the potential Culture from Writing a Political Treatise is instantly granted as Culture and Gold
​

UB - Ukiyo-e Guild (replaces Artists' Guild):

+2 Science to Artist Specialists
+5 Great Artist Points
2 Artist Specialist Slots
1 Specialist in this city does not generate unhappiness from urbanization
Whenever a Great Artist is born, 10% of the potential Golden Age Points from Starting a Golden Age is instantly granted as Golden Age Points and Science​

So 30% of a GWAM's bulb as 2 different yields whenever a GWAM is born.
It is not possible to give Tourism via lua, so doing a static value is all I can do. Deal with it.
It is not important to ensure that all yields be roughly equivalent to each other because the guilds do not need to be balanced against each other. A problem will only arise if 30% yields boost is too high relative to other civs' bonuses, but that will result in a nerf to all 3 guilds at once.

 

[Legen]

That kabuki looks very interesting, and I didn't think of adding a second yield to the procs. I like that the second yield is tied to the one the unique guilds boost on the cultural specialists, that's a nice touch.

I'm surprised about the static tourism, how does Brazil's UA work around that lua limitation? I was hoping Gagaku's tourism to scale akin to Carnival, so that it could compare with other cultural civs bonuses in the lategame.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Here's what I am testing right now:

Spoiler New Japan Kabuki :

UB - Kabuki Theater (replaces Opera House):

available at Acoustics
600 Production Cost
does not require an Amphitheater
+5 Culture
+5% Culture
+33% Great Musician Points
+1 Gold to all Musician/Gagaku Guilds on Empire
1 Great Work of Music Slot
50 Culture Whenever an Internal Trade Route To or From this city is completed, scaling with Era
Replaces each of the Guilds with a unique Japanese version of that Building on construction
​

UB - Gagaku Guild (replaces Musicians' Guild):

+2 Faith to Musician Specialists
+5 Great Musician Points
2 Musician Specialist Slots
1 Specialist in this city does not generate unhappiness from urbanization
Whenever a Great Musician is born, 300 Tourism and 10% of the potential Tourism from a Concert Tour is instantly granted as Faith​

UB - Monogatari Guild (replaces Writers' Guild):

+2 Gold to Writer Specialists
+5 Great Writer Points
2 Writer Specialist Slots
1 Specialist in this city does not generate unhappiness from urbanization
Whenever a Great Writer is born, 10% of the potential Culture from Writing a Political Treatise is instantly granted as Culture and Gold
​

UB - Ukiyo-e Guild (replaces Artists' Guild):

+2 Science to Artist Specialists
+5 Great Artist Points
2 Artist Specialist Slots
1 Specialist in this city does not generate unhappiness from urbanization
Whenever a Great Artist is born, 10% of the potential Golden Age Points from Starting a Golden Age is instantly granted as Golden Age Points and Science​

So 30% of a GWAM's bulb as 2 different yields whenever a GWAM is born.
It is not possible to give Tourism via lua, so doing a static value is all I can do. Deal with it.
It is not important to ensure that all yields be roughly equivalent to each other because the guilds do not need to be balanced against each other. A problem will only arise if 30% yields boost is too high relative to other civs' bonuses, but that will result in a nerf to all 3 guilds at once.

Liking it, but the Tourism quantity from Musician seems a bit too big, I'd reduce it to 200 or even 150 while maybe upping the Faith to 15/20% because it'll not be very impressive with how the Musician calculates anyway. Another issue is there's little reason to prioritise Kabuki outside of Guild cities and the ones you want to send ITRs to/from, but I think it'll be okay regardless. Cutting out or reducing the points and giving Kabuki more base yields would be an okay idea to counteract it, though.

Granted, it'd be pretty unique for the UB to operate like so with what cities actually need to have it, so I'm not sure it really is a problem. Sooner or later that Kabuki will be raised everywhere anyway, it's just not going to be a priority over +happiness stuff in non-guild/tr cities.

 

[pineappledan]

200 is the same as the yields from kill for a pracinha (which works the same way). I can reduce it to 200, sure. Then Kabuki and Pracinha can just use the same event.

I put it up on github for people to test; I can't play with it right now because I'm in the middle of a game with macedon that I'd like to finish. If I alter 4uC now I'll lose my save game

 

[Bhawb]

I'm going to hazard a guess that the buffs might put Japan significantly over the top, although I do like the conceptual idea. My last playthrough with them was by far the most runaway game I've ever had, and adding mini-bulbs will ramp up a lot of their strengths.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

I doubt it, France's in my opinion a much better civ with far more rewards for warmongering and it has a much better 4UC unique building than the current Kabuki. In case of both you have to be successful to truly gain which probably balances them out. Give them a try and just go crazy on a continent. I recommend razing the first few enemy cities so they're resettled if you truly want to see something out of this world.

 

[phantomaxl1207]

What do people think of the Alti Cur Council (Huns)? I find it just ok. I don't really find Tributing City States too useful into the later stages of the game.

I wish Cacador's had 1 Level of Survivalism and Trailblazer innately, as it would be nice when you upgrade into them.

 

[Legen]

200 or 300 don't look too much for me, since I'm used to seeing Brazil get way higher values with their UA. Since great artists scale with GAP, Brazil can get into 10k or 20k triggers from its golden ages by bulbing artists, to which the Sambadrome plays a noticeable part of. The Gagaku doesn't look anywhere comparable to that. But then, Brazil may not be the best comparison.

I'm installing the kabuki changes and I'll test it with the new release from Gazebo.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Same with me, I'm waiting for the new official VP release without those bugs I'm reading about in the new thread - and then I'll do some kabuki.