5 female polio workers shot dead

[dutchfire]

So let me get this straight. 5 polio workers get gunned down in Pakistan...and you blame the CIA for it?

You disagree with that judgement? It seems like a rather reasonable suggestion, especially given Forma's track record.

edit: Also, you missed an opportunity to blame Obama for these deaths!

 

[Formaldehyde]

It must have been entirely a coincidence that many humanitarian organizations claimed after the CIA did such a reprehensible deed which sowed distrust on all their workers, that it would quite likely endanger them in that part of the world in the future.

There is a price to be paid for our collective acts, even though the CIA obviously cannot be directly blamed as if they were the ones to have pulled the trigger. That is just yet another absurd straw man instead of even trying to discussing the real issues.

Once again, Mobboss is trying to rationalize and defend the utterly indefensible by intentionally bearing false witness.

 

[Gucumatz]

Nevertheless what happened was wrong. They were humanitarian workers and it is a disgrace how they were treated. You could debate whatever you wish about the CIA (certainly I have problems with them) but there ought to be a basic respect for civilians on both sides. And it starts, with BOTH SIDES

The faster we pull resources out of the region the better.

 

[Formaldehyde]

The trouble is that humanitarian workers will likely now pay the price for that misdeed for years to come, even if we do completely pull out of the area with our military forces. And so will those who now die from polio and other diseases which would have been prevented by their efforts.

So it is really a question of whether the CIA is so inept and incompetent that they didn't realize the likely outcome of their actions, even though it was quite apparently to most everybody else. Or they simply didn't care that their scheme would quite likely result in even more innocent civilian deaths.

 

[FriendlyFire]

So let me get this straight. 5 polio workers get gunned down in Pakistan...and you blame the CIA for it?

I thought you agreed that those civilians were legitimate targets because they assisted in some way ? Just like the sinking of the Lusitania by German u Boats in ww1 was completely justified and legal ???

So it is really a question of whether the CIA is so inept and incompetent that they didn't realize the likely outcome of their actions, even though it was quite apparently to most everybody else. Or they simply didn't care that their scheme would quite likely result in even more innocent civilian deaths.

Stop pretending that Pakistan is our "älly", well i guess we cant until the withdrawal from Afghanistan.
Chances are these were CIA agents and were then sold out by our ally

 

[ace99]

It's undeniable that humanitarian workers are now viewed with greater suspicion, and being seen as targets because of the concern they may be American spies. It's like using a Red Crescent ambulance to transport munitions.

 

[MobBoss]

You disagree with that judgement? It seems like a rather reasonable suggestion, especially given Forma's track record.

edit: Also, you missed an opportunity to blame Obama for these deaths!

Yeah, I blame the religious extremists that actually shot them. Imagine that.

It must have been entirely a coincidence that many humanitarian organizations claimed after the CIA did such a reprehensible deed which sowed distrust on all their workers, that it would quite likely endanger them in that part of the world in the future.

There is a price to be paid for our collective acts, even though the CIA obviously cannot be directly blamed as if they were the ones to have pulled the trigger. That is just yet another absurd straw man instead of even trying to discussing the real issues.

Once again, Mobboss is trying to rationalize and defend the utterly indefensible by intentionally bearing false witness.

No, its not a coincedence. They've been killing missionary and aide workers for years in that area of the world for a long time now:

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&tbo=d&...41db92e3d4d65d&bpcl=40096503&biw=1680&bih=910

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/ChristianAttacks.htm

So this kind of thing isnt really anything new around there. Could there be a link to it? Maybe. Could they have just shot them over pure paranoia and intolerance? Of course.

I just find it sad that so many refuse to actually pin responsibility on those that pull the triggers. You know...the actual murderers.

 

[Borachio]

Well, plainly the one who pulls pulling the trigger bears ultimate responsibility. Same as any soldier in any military.

But, as far as I've heard, the Taliban have a very low opinion of the West in general, and this last episode may just be a consequence of that.

The CIA is a morally bankrupt organization though. Don't you think?

 

[~Corsair#01~]

Well, plainly the one who pulls pulling the trigger bears ultimate responsibility. Same as any soldier in any military.

If a soldier in the US military kills a group of civilians, its no-one's responsibility.

These things happen. Collateral damage. Damn these militants for hiding behind human shields like that. Have these monsters no sense of right and wrong?

 

[Farm Boy]

If a soldier in the US military kills a group of civilians, it certainly is somebody's responsibility.

Ah but yes, the questions of intent, mistakes, reckless mistakes, human shields, all that. Are we really debating the morality when it's incredibly clear here that both sides(the ones that would spy using a medical assistance program and those that would kill them) are the worst this species has to offer?

 

[~Corsair#01~]

If a soldier in the US military kills a group of civilians, it certainly is somebody's responsibility.

I've got a few things to say about this. Firstly, the US military spirited this guy out of Afghanistan and made sure he'd never see an Afghan court. The Afghans weren't exactly pleased about that.

Second, he's facing a potential death penalty for the people he murdered. But do you honestly think he's going to end up like that? An American soldier- a white American soldier being executed for killing a bunch of Muslims? I doubt it.

Finally... this isn't the case that I referred to. What's going to happen to the people that killed those Yemeni kids? My guess is a promotion. That's a lot of dead "militants" for the CIA to brag about. Meanwhile the bombings continue.

Ah but yes, the questions of intent, mistakes, reckless mistakes, human shields, all that. Are we really debating the morality when it's incredibly clear here that both sides(the ones that would spy using a medical assistance program and those that would kill them) are the worst this species has to offer?

I agree with you that this a case of two sides that have nothing but contempt for civilian lives. The problem I have is that the media here in the "civilized world" doesn't exactly see it that way.

To them this is a black and white "war on terror". The mainstream media's idea of journalism is to simply write down what the military tells them. And that's it. It's a story with just one side. You write down what that side thinks and you're done. Case closed.

And on and on it goes... the good guys slaying the "terrorists" and those unlucky enough to live next door to them are just industrial accidents, like so much spilled sewage.

 

[Farm Boy]

They probably aren't going to off him, but that's the way this country(in general) is moving on the death penalty. If he was a black member of the US Armed forces would my assessment of that change? No, it wouldn't. That's just so much race-baiting. And you really think the media hasn't covered him? There's tons of shame there, as there should be.

Not sure about the rest. Maybe I listen to different media than you do. Maybe I know different people in real life than you do. My "redneck" counterparts aren't any too keen on spilled sewage as you put it. Most of them are pretty damned annoyed about the whole business. I use the term "annoyed" because they recognize a moral quandary that has been gotten into, doubled down on, tripled down on, and they don't see a good way out. Which is probably because it doesn't exist.

 

[~Corsair#01~]

On the subject of the "way out", of course there is a way to end this. Stop the drone strikes and apologise for the civilian deaths. That's the main recruitment factor for Al Qaeda in Yemen and Pakistan taken out at a stroke. Five minutes of President Obama in front of a microphone is all it would take. It wouldn't end Islamism as a movement or stop attacks on civilian targets but it would stop things from getting any worse and extricate the USA from this mess.

 

[Farm Boy]

I said good way out. If you think ending drone strikes(which I support!) and apologizing for civilian deaths(which we do!) is going to substantially reduce friction between Jihadi or Al Qaeda-like elements and the western world or more local secular movements you are far more optimistic than I. There's too much history and too many bitter memories. There are too many ignorant, greedy, or violent people everywhere. That still doesn't mean we shouldn't eliminate or almost eliminate the use of drone assassinations nor that we should stop continuing to apologize for civilian spillage.

 

[~Corsair#01~]

I don't know what to say. I can't argue with someone that I agree with.

But I'll say this. No-one ever strapped a bomb to themselves and went to kingdom-come because they hate a person or a nation. These people throw their lives away because they see, accurately, that that's what their lives are worth. Nothing. If we can give these people hope and a future, we can end this. If we can't then they'll impale themselves on the nearest lance they see. Because why not? If you have nothing to live for, why not take one of the bastards that put you in this position with you?

This "war" isn't going to be won by killing any number of people. We have to build something. But of course... that's not what our governments care about. What they care about is killing the bad guys and being the big strong man. Never give in. Never surrender. No peace with terrorists. And so it continues, year after year.

I'm from Northern Ireland and all I can say is... thank God the "terrorists" we were fighting were white. Because if they weren't I don't know what kind of nightmare we would be living in.

 

[Farm Boy]

If we can eliminate relative inequality to the point where everyone thinks they have the same amount of "stuffz" to live for, that still isn't going to do it entirely. Some people will want more than their fellows. There will still be a certain amount of shooting back required to maintain any degree of stability.

 

[dutchfire]

Yeah, I blame the religious extremists that actually shot them. Imagine that.

Claiming that things have a single cause is utterly ridiculous.

 

[MobBoss]

Claiming that things have a single cause is utterly ridiculous.

Not in the least. Sometimes it literally is just that black and white. Sometimes not.

 

[Shaihulud]

It is a cultural misunderstanding I am sure, the Pakistanis do not know that these health workers are not spies for the Americans as we do, or do we? Despite it not being a legitimate war (from the terrorist) I can't expect them to tie one hand behind their back in their conflict against the USA, they are terrorists, and not constrained by legalities! I can only hope their actions will prove detrimental to their cause and isolate them from the public.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Ah but yes, the questions of intent, mistakes, reckless mistakes, human shields, all that. Are we really debating the morality when it's incredibly clear here that both sides(the ones that would spy using a medical assistance program and those that would kill them) are the worst this species has to offer?

That doesn't seem to be clear at all to those who continue to try to rationalize and defend "the worst this species has to offer" quite frequently.