5 zettabytes of data at Buffdale

1) Then stop complaining about lack of transparancy in the Obama Administration. This administration has been one of the most transparent.
Um, no thanks, it's a free country.
And, I'm not alone in complaining:
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2012/jul/16/obama-report-card-transparency-sunlight/

2) Let me correct you, Republicans created, signed and enable this to happen all the while blocking democrates trying to put to make the patriot act more transparent, more accountable. Example would be Kennedy being put on the "no fly list"
Ok, you from the Democrats good Republicans bad camp... I personally think both parties are pretty lame.

3) /facepalm
I'm going to introduce you to the facts:
Spoiler :
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/14/ndaa-case-indefinite-dentention_n_1885204.html
Lawyers for the Obama administration are arguing that the United States will be irreparably harmed if it has to abide by a judge's ruling that it can no longer hold terrorism suspects indefinitely without trial in military custody.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...ror-suspects/2011/12/31/gIQATzbkSP_story.html
President Obama expressed misgivings about several provisions of a sweeping defense bill he signed into law on Saturday, pledging that his administration will use broad discretion in interpreting the measure’s legal requirements to ensure that U.S. citizens suspected of terrorism are not detained indefinitely by the military.
I guess those misgivings weren't serious?


4) Democrates also gave detainees geneva convention rights which Republicans blocked. Between the undeclared war, the mess that was Gitmo with its what 76% release rate ? Obama is trying to clean up the mess left behind. Example. closing up Bush "secret" overseas prisons.
More facts for you:
Spoiler :
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/25/us/politics/25rendition.html
The Obama administration will continue the Bush administration’s practice of sending terrorism suspects to third countries for detention and interrogation, but pledges to closely monitor their treatment to ensure that they are not tortured, administration officials said Monday.

5) You do know that Obama had to fight tooth and nail against Republicans to water down the patriot act and make it more transparent right ?
You do know that this very thread is an example of doing the opposite?

6) Good on you. Though if you had voted for Gore at least we wouldnt be cleaning up Bush mess and we would have gotten more movement on the Global warming and other enviromental issues.
Gore was a mess... Though I wish we'd put the Social Security $$$ in the "lockbox".
I support the Green Party for many reasons, protecting the US environment being one... but also for not being Neocons, support of Universal HC, and a slew of other issues. I do not support their 2nd amendment stance.
 

But the ACLU's Richardson noted that while there have been no additional legislative oversight measures passed during Obama's presidency, there have been some put in place in the executive branch. Most notably, the Justice Department decided to implement several measures that were originally included in the USA PATRIOT Act Sunset Extension Act of 2009

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...-the-patriot-act-to-increase-oversight-on-go/

What a mess.
Between fixing the economy, fixing the two wars, fixing the patriot act, and fixing everything that was left behind by the eight year disaster that was the Bush administration. Obama was either naive or realistic in hes actions. Republicans have been merciless at any at weakening on any issue regarding defence, war, spying and you know just how effective they have been twisting everything around.

I doubt with the polarization, partisanship and US politics that we can really expect more.
 
Ah, so, all the things Obama is doing poorly at, it is all because of Bush.
Got it.
For the record, Iraq was already fixed (as it was going to get)... Afghanistan has been a failure with no picture of "fixing" in the future... the economy still sucks... Gitmo is still open... renditions still occur... drone missile use has gone up... national debt has gone up by something like $6T...

BUT
We got ACA! Whooty who!
 
Absolutely. Which is why I understood the US government had put a limit on the size of the password (actually a prime number for the public key) that can be made available legally. How they tell you're using one, or enforce the limit, I wouldn't know. And maybe I'm just writing random nonsense, anyway.

No, it doesn't work like that.

There is little doubt that the NSA can decrypt any publicly available encryption mechanism, as can a handful of other countries with similar capabilities.

There's really no evidence to support that statement.

Outlawing any form encryption for anyone outside of the US is completely out of the realms of realistic enforcement for the NSA.

How effective do you think the export bans against Cuba, Iran, North Korea, Sudan, or Syria actually are?

I don't think you know... actually... or at least, you are completely "misunderestimating" them.
First, their processors are light years beyond yours.
Second, their algorithms at the NSA are pretty sophisticated...
Third, they perhaps categorize them in some manner to increase accessibility (this part is a guess, and probably isn't right, but if it is, it is done via a program doing it for them based on key word hits, for example... not some guy looking at each e-mail's subject line).

Let me ask you this...
If they just can't possibly find the e-mails in under a decade's time... WHY are they storing them?

The NSA doesn't have magical algorithms or processors.

They certainly don't have computers that are orders of magnitude faster than supercomputers that IBM and Cray have.

Computer science is a highly competitive field of research and a ton of research goes into cryptography, the systems we currently use are very well understood. (By academics, I doubt more than maybe 3-4 people on here understand more than the very basics of cryptography.)
 
There's really no evidence to support that statement.
What "evidence" do you think there would be of super-secret programs? But here's a quite public Wired article which essentially states exactly that.

The NSA Is Building the Country’s Biggest Spy Center (Watch What You Say)

There is still one technology preventing untrammeled government access to private digital data: strong encryption. Anyone—from terrorists and weapons dealers to corporations, financial institutions, and ordinary email senders—can use it to seal their messages, plans, photos, and documents in hardened data shells. For years, one of the hardest shells has been the Advanced Encryption Standard, one of several algorithms used by much of the world to encrypt data. Available in three different strengths—128 bits, 192 bits, and 256 bits—it’s incorporated in most commercial email programs and web browsers and is considered so strong that the NSA has even approved its use for top-secret US government communications. Most experts say that a so-called brute-force computer attack on the algorithm—trying one combination after another to unlock the encryption—would likely take longer than the age of the universe. For a 128-bit cipher, the number of trial-and-error attempts would be 340 undecillion (1036).

Breaking into those complex mathematical shells like the AES is one of the key reasons for the construction going on in Bluffdale. That kind of cryptanalysis requires two major ingredients: super-fast computers to conduct brute-force attacks on encrypted messages and a massive number of those messages for the computers to analyze. The more messages from a given target, the more likely it is for the computers to detect telltale patterns, and Bluffdale will be able to hold a great many messages. “We questioned it one time,” says another source, a senior intelligence manager who was also involved with the planning. “Why were we building this NSA facility? And, boy, they rolled out all the old guys—the crypto guys.” According to the official, these experts told then-director of national intelligence Dennis Blair, “You’ve got to build this thing because we just don’t have the capability of doing the code-breaking.” It was a candid admission. In the long war between the code breakers and the code makers—the tens of thousands of cryptographers in the worldwide computer security industry—the code breakers were admitting defeat.

So the agency had one major ingredient—a massive data storage facility—under way. Meanwhile, across the country in Tennessee, the government was working in utmost secrecy on the other vital element: the most powerful computer the world has ever known.

The plan was launched in 2004 as a modern-day Manhattan Project. Dubbed the High Productivity Computing Systems program, its goal was to advance computer speed a thousandfold, creating a machine that could execute a quadrillion (1015) operations a second, known as a petaflop—the computer equivalent of breaking the land speed record. And as with the Manhattan Project, the venue chosen for the supercomputing program was the town of Oak Ridge in eastern Tennessee, a rural area where sharp ridges give way to low, scattered hills, and the southwestward-flowing Clinch River bends sharply to the southeast. About 25 miles from Knoxville, it is the “secret city” where uranium- 235 was extracted for the first atomic bomb. A sign near the exit read: what you see here, what you do here, what you hear here, when you leave here, let it stay here. Today, not far from where that sign stood, Oak Ridge is home to the Department of Energy’s Oak Ridge National Laboratory, and it’s engaged in a new secret war. But this time, instead of a bomb of almost unimaginable power, the weapon is a computer of almost unimaginable speed.

In 2004, as part of the supercomputing program, the Department of Energy established its Oak Ridge Leadership Computing Facility for multiple agencies to join forces on the project. But in reality there would be two tracks, one unclassified, in which all of the scientific work would be public, and another top-secret, in which the NSA could pursue its own computer covertly. “For our purposes, they had to create a separate facility,” says a former senior NSA computer expert who worked on the project and is still associated with the agency. (He is one of three sources who described the program.) It was an expensive undertaking, but one the NSA was desperate to launch.

Known as the Multiprogram Research Facility, or Building 5300, the $41 million, five-story, 214,000-square-foot structure was built on a plot of land on the lab’s East Campus and completed in 2006. Behind the brick walls and green-tinted windows, 318 scientists, computer engineers, and other staff work in secret on the cryptanalytic applications of high-speed computing and other classified projects. The supercomputer center was named in honor of George R. Cotter, the NSA’s now-retired chief scientist and head of its information technology program. Not that you’d know it. “There’s no sign on the door,” says the ex-NSA computer expert.

At the DOE’s unclassified center at Oak Ridge, work progressed at a furious pace, although it was a one-way street when it came to cooperation with the closemouthed people in Building 5300. Nevertheless, the unclassified team had its Cray XT4 supercomputer upgraded to a warehouse-sized XT5. Named Jaguar for its speed, it clocked in at 1.75 petaflops, officially becoming the world’s fastest computer in 2009.

Meanwhile, over in Building 5300, the NSA succeeded in building an even faster supercomputer. “They made a big breakthrough,” says another former senior intelligence official, who helped oversee the program. The NSA’s machine was likely similar to the unclassified Jaguar, but it was much faster out of the gate, modified specifically for cryptanalysis and targeted against one or more specific algorithms, like the AES. In other words, they were moving from the research and development phase to actually attacking extremely difficult encryption systems. The code-breaking effort was up and running.

The breakthrough was enormous, says the former official, and soon afterward the agency pulled the shade down tight on the project, even within the intelligence community and Congress. “Only the chairman and vice chairman and the two staff directors of each intelligence committee were told about it,” he says. The reason? “They were thinking that this computing breakthrough was going to give them the ability to crack current public encryption.”

Outlawing any form encryption for anyone outside of the US is completely out of the realms of realistic enforcement for the NSA.
They already did it back in the 70s by mandating the DES standard in this country, which became the international standard.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_Encryption_Standard

How effective do you think the export bans against Cuba, Iran, North Korea, Sudan, or Syria actually are?
Exactly. If they really posed any sort of threat to their ability to decrypt the communications, they would simply not allow them as Pakistan is now doing.

They certainly don't have computers that are orders of magnitude faster than supercomputers that IBM and Cray have.
The NSA has always been quite a bit ahead of the rest of the world in that regard. It is rather naive to think they have been spending hundreds of billions of dollars decrypting communications since WWII with nothing to show for it, while protecting our own classified information with even more robust encryption capabilities. Until the 70s, there was no public research in cryptography. You either worked for the NSA or you didn't work at all. Since then, they have taken a different attitude by allowing some public research to occur. I think it is because they do have a way to crack AES, and they have for decades now. But of course there is no way to prove it. It would be one of the most closely guarded secrets in the history of this country.
 
So how will they organize us?

By age,sex,Location or perversion?

I just hope that we can still watch music on youtube for free...
 
The NSA doesn't have magical algorithms or processors.
Who ever said magical?

They certainly don't have computers that are orders of magnitude faster than supercomputers that IBM and Cray have.
Faster than windfish though...
And, actually, they do. You are severely underestimating the NSA.

Anyhow, all that aside, as I said, a pre-sorting program that would place emails automatically into threat categories based on key word hits would assist in the search function.

It actual boggles my mind that we all know that the US government can intercept missiles in mid flight, put rovers on mars, etc... but you don't think we can efficiently search through computer stored files.
 
Let me ask you this.
If Bush administration had nothing to hide why did it Accidentally delete 3 million emails, and then Accidentally delete the backups and then Accidentally delete the mail server copies instead of storing them as law requires ?

I just read a VERY interesting bit that touched on this. Turns out the guy that is likely responsible for the actual deleting was also involved with Karl Rove's alleged involvement with some odd events in the Ohio vote tally during the 2004 election:
http://www.projectcensored.org/top-...th-of-mike-connell—karl-roves-election-thief/
I can't paste from there oddly, so please accept my humble typing:
Karl Rove's chief IT consultant, Mike Connell - who was facing subpoena in connection with 2004 Presidential election fraud in Ohio - mysteriously died in a private plane crash* in 2008.

[snip]

Election fraud analyst and author Mark Crispin Miller notes that the timing and circumstances of Connell’s death—between deposition and trial—are too suspicious and convenient for Rove and the Bush administration, not to merit a thorough investigation.

[snip]

Timing of Connell’s deposition may have saved the 2008 presidential elections from electronic theft.
*the crash appears to be entirely consistent with an accident owing to poor weather conditions. I would not characterize the crash as mysterious at all. But I do wonder if an autopsy was performed, and if they looked for any substances that could impair judgement.

I came across this when reading about the ORCA Killer thingy that some anons claim to have pulled off:
http://occupyforaccountability.org/index.php?q=node/1075

If you travel to these links bring along your skeptical hat. That said, there is a compelling circumstance in all this.


No, it doesn't work like that.
[snip]

The NSA doesn't have magical algorithms or processors.

They certainly don't have computers that are orders of magnitude faster than supercomputers that IBM and Cray have.

Computer science is a highly competitive field of research and a ton of research goes into cryptography, the systems we currently use are very well understood. (By academics, I doubt more than maybe 3-4 people on here understand more than the very basics of cryptography.)
Actually, it doesn't work the way you think it does.

Formaldehyde gave you a pretty decent summation, so I won't rehash that. But your impression of the NSA is seriously wrong.

First of all, NSA are the primary client for supercomputers. CRAY was practically founded in order to supply NSA with the machine they required. Academic, research, and other institutions have access only to the trickle down tech that the NSA pays CRAY and others to build for them first.

Secondly, you're right to say that they don't have magic software. Magic is not compatible with the Universe as we know it. What NSA have are hands-down the far-and-away best software and hardware for their applications. NSA has - literally - no budget. If they want to spend $20,000,000 on developing a faster & broader switch register, they can. Their funding is "black" - hidden. That means they have a magic budget. Not magic algorithms.

If you want to learn more about them, read James Bamford's Body of Secrets. It's a great primer on their history, mission, successes, and value.

Bamford, by the way, also wrote that Wired article. I'm sure there's stuff in the article that could be challenged, but this guy really knows his stuff here.
 
peter, did you see the word orders of magnitude? Sure, the NSA probably has supercomputers that are at least as good as the well known scientific supercomputers. Maybe a hundred times better. To effectively decrypt these things, they would have to be like billions times better than whatever is available elsewhere. I don't think that is the case.
 
This probably ought to be discussed. I'll just quote a part of this and see if anyone is interested. Click the link.

RT: And it’s not just about those, who could be planning, who could be a threat to national security, but also those, who could be just…

WB: It’s everybody. The Naris device if it takes in the entire line, so it takes in all the data. In fact they advertised they can process the lines at session rates, which means 10 gigabit lines. I forgot the name of the device (it’s not the Naris) – the other one does it at 10 gigabits. That’s why the building Buffdale, because they have to have more storage, because they can’t figure out what’s important, so they are just storing everything there. So, e-mails are going to be stored there for the future, but right now stored in different places around the country. But it is being collected – and the FBI has access to it.


http://rt.com/usa/news/surveillance-spying-e-mail-citizens-178/

There's something that's been bothering me about this OP, and I've finally figured it out. There was a typo in the [seagreen] quoted text. This typo was carried over to the thread title.

The typo never would have happened had MisterCooper used a copy/paste method to generate his OP. But he hand-typed it.

By hand.


Typed.



Every letter.




Does anyone else think that this is worth investigating?

Let's see who else can spot the typo. It's a little interesting, as it shows us all who reads the links, and who doesn't.
 
A perspective: 5 zettabyte is 'only' 700 GB per citizen of the earth. Google currently gives you 10 GB per account.
 
A perspective: 5 zettabyte is 'only' 700 GB per citizen of the earth. Google currently gives you 10 GB per account.

:worship:

Thank you for actually working this through. I know it didn't take much, but putting things in perspective like this is very helpful.

Also, it's important to remember that 1 of every 3 people are either Indian or Chinese, and that nearly 1 of every 2 people live on less than $2 per day.

Ugh.
 
peter, did you see the word orders of magnitude? Sure, the NSA probably has supercomputers that are at least as good as the well known scientific supercomputers. Maybe a hundred times better. To effectively decrypt these things, they would have to be like billions times better than whatever is available elsewhere. I don't think that is the case.
That is only true through a brute force method of the largest keys.

Again, why does the NSA even allow such large public keys when they could easily forbid them, at least in the US and other friendly countries? Why have they spent hundreds of billions of dollars over the past few decades on facilities intended to decrypt such communications?
 
You might want to use the number of people who use email, telephones, and/or have some sort of web access, instead of the population of the world, to arrive at a better number.

But even so, I have no difficulty believing that gives them far more capacity than what is necessary for a complete history of every email, phone call, google search, credit card purchase, internet post, tax return, etc. for me.
 
They aren't worried about decyphering things unless they need to...
Most sane people are putting their e-mails into code...
 
You might want to use the number of people who use email, telephones, and/or have some sort of web access, instead of the population of the world, to arrive at a better number.

But even so, I have no difficulty believing that gives them far more capacity than what is necessary for a complete history of every email, phone call, google search, credit card purchase, internet post, tax return, etc. for me.

My primary e-mail account is at 4 GB currently. Accounting for my secondary e-mail accounts and for things I threw away, I'm probably in the 10s of GB range easily and I'm not that intensive a user. If they also want to account for twitters, blogs, instagram, ..., 5 zettabytes isn't that much, I suppose.
 
That is only true through a brute force method of the largest keys.

Again, why does the NSA even allow such large public keys when they could easily forbid them, at least in the US and other friendly countries? Why have they spent hundreds of billions of dollars over the past few decades on facilities intended to decrypt such communications?

Because it also can't stop them?

AES is sort of the perfect example. Given current computer design, it's effectively unbreakable. The NSA approves it for use for classified government data. Would they be doing this if they had the computing power to break it? Because it's a near certainty that if the NSA has a method to break it, China and Russia do too.

Do you really believe that the NSA has managed to outsmart the entire mathematics and cryptographic community? Because that's what they'd need to do. Just having a lot of computers doesn't make any difference, they'd effectively have to have built a quantum computer to have any hope of breaking properly encrypted messages.

If the NSA is reading our RSA and AES messages, I'll eat my hat, right after I put one on.
 
We really have no idea what the NSA approves or doesn't approve for its most sophisticated crypto systems because it is a highly guarded secret. Nor do we have any idea whether or not they have a means of decrypting AES without using brute force techniques because that would be an even greater secret.

But we do know that the NSA has spent hundreds of billions of dollars decrypting traffic over the past few decades while not complaining one bit about RSA or AES being in the public domain, even though they clearly have the power to ban it from use in the US and much of the rest of the world if they so desired. They could very well force many of us to use something similar to DES as they did in the past.

I think that means they can very well decrypt it using their own highly sophisticated and extremely secret techniques, as well as by using the fastest and most proprietary computers ever invented by far. YMMV.
 
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