5 zettabytes of data at Buffdale

[warpus]

Pretty much this, I'm a first year math grad student with minimal cryptography or programming background. But I could easily implement an arbitrarily huge RSA, including writing Maple code to do all the necessary calculations in a weekend. That I could guarantee would take months to years for the NSA to crack. Note it may run very slowly for me of course, since I would be using a large key etc.

RSA is well known, and essentially unbreakable, Math > NSA.

Yep.

While I'm sure the NSA has made advances in cryptography that remain secret, there's no way they have a quantum computer at their disposal.

As such, some encryption schemes will remain unbreakable for them, for as long as they don't have that quantum computer....

 

[kochman]

• Don't assume GPS is made of magic. It isn't. Anything that's going to be mass installed into cars definitely won't be.
• How exactly are they going to store all that data hmm? Storing a complete audio record would fill any reliable storage medium immediately.

What these things are actually for is storing the last 1-3 minutes of data before an impact event to aid collision investigators.

1) Magic? I never said anything about magic.
Fact is, if the GPS can position itself by talking to satellites, it can also be positioned externally via satellites.

2) Not really. Storage capacity is pretty easy these days. It would obviously not be on during silence... voice activated recording devices are quite common.

3) You are sorely mistaken on this 1-3 minutes.
I can store over 640GB of data on something smaller than my cellphone, my portable hard drive.
It receives it power via USB cable only (no other plug ins). I bought this device about 3-4 years ago for $100 or so. 640GB of voice recording, in below "audiophile" sound quality (let's say even at 128kbps) can record hours and hours and hours.
My device, which has the entire Grateful Dead and Jerry Garcia Band collection on it, in 200kbps MP3, and is not full, currently stores 4,544 hours of music on it.

By the way, I still have nearly 100GB of space available on this device.

 

[dutchfire]

Fact is, if the GPS can position itself by talking to satellites, it can also be positioned externally via satellites.

No. My radio can pick up the music from the station. The station doesn´t know where I am. Please learn basic science.

 

[kochman]

No. My radio can pick up the music from the station. The station doesn´t know where I am. Please learn basic science.

Radios receive radio waves in the air...

Anyhow, not all GPS can be tracked, it is true. However, all they need do is insert some chip that can, like they do in cars for anti-theft protection. It wouldn't be hard...

I mean, they want to be able to find the car "when it wrecks"? Right?

I'm not saying it is 100% going to happen, but it is possible.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

No. My radio can pick up the music from the station. The station doesn´t know where I am. Please learn basic science.

Radios receive radio waves in the air...

This is exactly what GPS recievers do.

 

[History_Buff]

1) Magic? I never said anything about magic.
Fact is, if the GPS can position itself by talking to satellites, it can also be positioned externally via satellites.

No, they certainly cannot. Do you have any idea how much power it requires to talk to a satellite? And you want to pack that into a consumer car?

But the magic portion I was referring to was it's ability to locate you at all. Pro-tip: if you don't want the government tracking your car via GPS, put a 1W transmitter on top of the antenna. Problem solved.

2) Not really. Storage capacity is pretty easy these days. It would obviously not be on during silence... voice activated recording devices are quite common.

3) You are sorely mistaken on this 1-3 minutes.
I can store over 640GB of data on something smaller than my cellphone, my portable hard drive.
It receives it power via USB cable only (no other plug ins). I bought this device about 3-4 years ago for $100 or so. 640GB of voice recording, in below "audiophile" sound quality (let's say even at 128kbps) can record hours and hours and hours.
My device, which has the entire Grateful Dead and Jerry Garcia Band collection on it, in 200kbps MP3, and is not full, currently stores 4,544 hours of music on it.

By the way, I still have nearly 100GB of space available on this device.

And how exactly are they going to retrieve and sort this data?

I mean, they want to be able to find the car "when it wrecks"? Right?

No. They want a rough guess at how fast it was going before the collision. By the time they care, they've already found the vehicle.

 

[Farm Boy]

It's not very hard to track a cellphone, it wouldn't be omg hard to install a pingable unit in cars if the desire was there.

 

[History_Buff]

It's not very hard to track a cellphone, it wouldn't be omg hard to install a pingable unit in cars if the desire was there.

It's actually relatively difficult to locate a cellphone within more than say, 30-50m unless it's GPS is turned on and can track properly.

Cellphone companies are actually supposed to be able to locate your phone within that range for e911 purposes, and generally speaking, they can't do it with any degree of reliability. Won't stop them from charging you for it of course.

 

[Farm Boy]

It's actually relatively difficult to locate a cellphone within more than say, 30-50m unless it's GPS is turned on and can track properly.

Cellphone companies are actually supposed to be able to locate your phone within that range for e911 purposes, and generally speaking, they can't do it with any degree of reliability. Won't stop them from charging you for it of course.

They get within a block accurate almost without fail. My wife has to do it all the time, on the working end of 911.

Though in afterthought this, of course, will depend on your general area's tower infrastructure.

 

[Zelig]

I find it more creepy how accurately Google can get your location from wifi data, even without cell or GPS enabled.

 

[kochman]

It's interesting that HB, you seem to think, this is a good idea?
First you denied that the storage could be had... until I showed you how easily it could...
Now you say, well, they can't retrieve it...
How hard do you think that is? Especially if they do it after the fact... meaning, they've captured you and now have your black box.

Alternatively, a simple wi-fi transmitter would work, but I don't think they'd go that far...

The intent probably isn't to actively and at the moment listen in on people, they could just put a bug in your car for that... it's to have a record should something go haywire... like you get in a car accident... or you plan to rob a bank... or you're on the phone telling someone how your wife cheated on you (establishing motive type stuff)...

 

[History_Buff]

They get within a block accurate almost without fail. My wife has to do it all the time, on the working end of 911.

Though in afterthought this, of course, will depend on your general area's tower infrastructure.

It's dependent on a whole lot of things. Tower infrastructure is a big one, the protocol your phone uses to talk to that tower matters too, as does the type of buildings in the area.

I find it more creepy how accurately Google can get your location from wifi data, even without cell or GPS enabled.

Yeah, since so many of the wifi hotspots broadcast their own location, Google can usually get you to at least within the building. The technical aspects of locating yourself based on different wifi hotspots is actually super cool. Also, not very accurate.

It's interesting that HB, you seem to think, this is a good idea?
First you denied that the storage could be had... until I showed you how easily it could...
Now you say, well, they can't retrieve it...
How hard do you think that is? Especially if they do it after the fact... meaning, they've captured you and now have your black box.

Well first of all, I'm all but certain it's not a thing that's actually happening. Hence my lack of concern. Were it happening, I don't know that I'd mind all that much, but I wouldn't call it a good idea, if only because it would be a terrible waste of government resources.

And yeah, I suspect the whole storage space thing I was wrong about. But still, if the government has already apprehended you for something, then yeah, they could get to it pretty easily I suppose. I guess if you really want to carry on illegal activities in your car, you'll just need to disable the device.

The intent probably isn't to actively and at the moment listen in on people, they could just put a bug in your car for that... it's to have a record should something go haywire... like you get in a car accident... or you plan to rob a bank... or you're on the phone telling someone how your wife cheated on you (establishing motive type stuff)...

It would extremely useful in case of a car crash. I'm actually super in favor of "record the last three minutes that happened in a vehicle", with a simple continuous overwrite, for exactly that purpose.

As for those other things, that sounds like them using the information in a court of law? In which it would already be subject to the same reasonable cause and Fruit of the Poisonous Tree rules.

 

[kochman]

Well first of all, I'm all but certain it's not a thing that's actually happening. Hence my lack of concern. Were it happening, I don't know that I'd mind all that much, but I wouldn't call it a good idea, if only because it would be a terrible waste of government resources.

I wouldn't be so sure... and, waste of resources? That's a hallmark of the US Government.

And yeah, I suspect the whole storage space thing I was wrong about. But still, if the government has already apprehended you for something, then yeah, they could get to it pretty easily I suppose. I guess if you really want to carry on illegal activities in your car, you'll just need to disable the device.

Ah, if you aren't doing anything wrong, you have nothing to fear...
I personally don't like the idea of living in a Big Brother society... and, if I do do something wrong, I feel like you should catch me in another way.
There are places you should be allowed to have privacy...
It's getting to the point where the only place you have total privacy (a part of freedom) is in one's own head.
And where does it stop?

It would extremely useful in case of a car crash. I'm actually super in favor of "record the last three minutes that happened in a vehicle", with a simple continuous overwrite, for exactly that purpose.

If it was legislated as such... but I highly doubt that will be the case.

As for those other things, that sounds like them using the information in a court of law? In which it would already be subject to the same reasonable cause and Fruit of the Poisonous Tree rules.

I'm not familiar with Fruit of the Poisonous Tree rules...

 

[History_Buff]

I'm not familiar with Fruit of the Poisonous Tree rules...

It's the idea that if evidence is obtained illegally it's generally not admissible in a court of law. So if the police search your car, find incontrovertible evidence that you committed some crime, but the search was illegal in the first place, then the evidence doesn't count.

 

[innonimatu]

Dr. Innonimatu: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb Database

despite of what I wrote earlier, my position on the matter is not that strong. While I think that the awareness in the english-speaking-sphere on such matters is too low, I sometimes feel that we go overboard with data privacy.

True. But they're finally getting aware if that.

What you described can only work if the data that governments/companies gather is public. Most often, that is not the case since they want to use it to their advantage (if you know more about a customer than the competition you're at an advantage).

And also true. That's why I think that the transition period is going to be though on many people.

 

[kochman]

It's the idea that if evidence is obtained illegally it's generally not admissible in a court of law. So if the police search your car, find incontrovertible evidence that you committed some crime, but the search was illegal in the first place, then the evidence doesn't count.

Ah, well... unfortunately, Obama also signed into law indefinite detention without trial... so, if you somehow become an "enemy of the state", you've got no recourse anymore.

 

[History_Buff]

Except for all the popular outrage a move like that would probably create. There are the same checks there have always been.

 

[Gamemaster77]

Even if they banned certain encryption mechanisms, do you really think anyone who cares would listen?

 

[kochman]

Except for all the popular outrage a move like that would probably create. There are the same checks there have always been.

It didn't create much outrage at all... it passed with huge partisan support... like the Patriot Act... can't vote against the Patriot Act, you'd be unpatriotic.

There is no check to "indefinite detention without trial", nor is there a check to "drone assassination without trial"...
The check was the trial.

 

[Farm Boy]

It didn't create much outrage at all... it passed with huge partisan support... like the Patriot Act... can't vote against the Patriot Act, you'd be unpatriotic.

There is no check to "indefinite detention without trial", nor is there a check to "drone assassination without trial"...
The check was the trial.

I have to agree here.