A case for forum members easing up on 2K a bit

[frekk]

But, unfortunately, Steam as a digital distributor with a community integrated system is the only one of its kind in existence. Of course, you'd argue, 'well, that shouldn't be a problem with Civ5, it doesn't need that'. And I agree. But Gamers Gate, Direct 2 Disc and GOG.com for that matter, aren't exactly big names when it comes to distribution, so 2K Games probably went with the easy choice and picked Steam.

I can see why 2K has been caught off-guard by the reaction. They looked at Steam and quite innocently saw it as popular with consumers and convenient for them. However, I imagine the consumer base at Steam largely consists of juveniles and teens, a group not exactly known for their consumer acumen, which Steam has exploited. The Civ consumer base is quite a bit different, and adults are more important in marketing terms than they might be in the case of, let's say, Dangerous High School Girls in Trouble. They're not going to appreciate the same level of consumer exploitation.

 

[Ahriman]

No need to dramatise it Ahriman. I don't think even tom called them evil.

I don't think I'm over-dramatizing here.

Read the quote:

It goes to show you how Steam can manipulate price on occasion to sucker people to take the bait, hook, line and sinker ...
Valve has Psychologists studying this crap; doing brain jobs on gamers to figure out how to bleed their wallets dry.

Translation: like any other business, Valve/Steam is trying to figure out ways to sell stuff and make money.

It's only fitting to point out that most of the time the prices are quite poor, at sales time the prices can be only competitive or a bargain depending on the game.

Sometimes they have the best price, sometimes they don't. Just like most other stores.
If you only ever buy things on sale, you can get great deals.

It doesn't mean we want you to hate steam because it doesn't always have the best prices.

Really? That's exactly what Tom is saying.

. I'd even go so far to say it's probably the most effective converter of pirates (in this case I mean the people who illegally download the games) into paying customers.

Which sounds like something we should be supporting, no?

I can see why 2K has been caught off-guard by the reaction. They looked at Steam and quite innocently saw it as popular with consumers and convenient for them. However, I imagine the consumer base at Steam largely consists of juveniles and teens, a group not exactly known for their consumer acumen, which Steam has exploited. The Civ consumer base is quite a bit different, and adults are more important in marketing terms than they might be in the case of, let's say, Dangerous High School Girls in Trouble. They're not going to appreciate the same level of consumer exploitation.

I think its hilarious the way that people assume that PeopleWhoDontMindSteam are juvenile teens, because, you know, only hardcore people like them are representative of real adult consumers.

 

[ori]

Moderator Action: I asked elsewhere to refrain from speculating about the identity of steam sceptics - especially if designed in an argument about their importance for the franchise. The same holds true for speculating about the identity of steam fans: please don't, it won't further civil discussion, I fear.

 

[PieceOfMind]

I don't think I'm over-dramatizing here.

Read the quote:

It goes to show you how Steam can manipulate price on occasion to sucker people to take the bait, hook, line and sinker ...
Valve has Psychologists studying this crap; doing brain jobs on gamers to figure out how to bleed their wallets dry.

Translation: like any other business, Valve/Steam is trying to figure out ways to sell stuff and make money.

Exactly. And it makes them evil, exactly how?

Sometimes they have the best price, sometimes they don't. Just like most other stores.
If you only ever buy things on sale, you can get great deals.

Agreed. Also, if you only ever buy things on sale, this will be reflected in the regular reports that Steam can generate about sales. It means Valve know they don't need to have a competitive regular price. Just as it has been proven that even when people know that $x.99 is a sales trick they are still subconsciously fooled into thinking the price is lower, Valve have likely learned that poor regular prices combined with sales that bring goods down to only competitive prices (or bargain in some cases) is even more successful than having a competitive regular price. That's their chosen sales model. Doesn't make them evil or bad or anything. I'm just sayin...

Really? That's exactly what Tom is saying.

No. You are putting words in his mouth now. Unless you are taking comments from outside the post you quoted, please show me exactly where tom said anything to the effect of "you should hate steam because it doesn't always have the best prices". You just said that that's exactly what he's saying so hopefully you should have no trouble.

Which sounds like something we should be supporting, no?

I consider it to be a good thing, but I'm not going to give you the satisfaction of admitting the ends justify the means. There are many ways to ensure that people buy your game. Not all of them revolve around punishing the pirates (and hence almost always the legitimate customers too). Many of them involve positive incentives for people who want to take full advantage all the game's features. And even though I'm saying Steam is likely to convert some pirates to payers, I'd bet that number is very small. In fact it's probably smaller than the number of people who don't buy civ5 because of the steam requirement. So no, I don't necessarily support the move to Steam just for this one small reason.

I think its hilarious the way that people assume that PeopleWhoDontMindSteam are juvenile teens, because, you know, only hardcore people like them are representative of real adult consumers.

EDIT... Comment removed due to moderator crackdown.

 

[Akka]

The choice to use Steamworks was a decision by both 2K and Firaxis.

What, 2K came, said "we're going to use Steam" and Firaxis answered "Duh, well, you're the boss", which makes it a decision by both team ?

Steamworks is a great thing for the developer; it allows them to make a better game. It's a lot like why most people use DirectX or OpenGL instead of writing their own 3d renderer from scratch.

So, even if you don't plan on using the specific features that Steamworks allows the developers to implement very easily (like multiplayer,) it still gets you a better overall game because those features (which would be there no matter what framework, if any, was decided on) took less time to implement.

Ditch the PR crap, thanks. If you were a fan beforehand, you should know how most people hates it.
Steam is not making Civ a better game. It's an intrusive crapastic DRM tool, and there is nothing in it that actually improves a Civ. Nothing that Steam adds is actually relevant to the game.

It was chosen to keep a tight leash on piracy and used sales. It was chosen because it restricts consumers uses of the game. It was not chosen FOR consumers. Don't imagine we're naive enough to buy the PR excuses. I know it's your job, but it's seriously insulting.

 

[Mithris]

I'm happy to have it on steam.

 

[bjbrains]

What, 2K came, said "we're going to use Steam" and Firaxis answered "Duh, well, you're the boss", which makes it a decision by both team ?

Do you not understand how a healthy business relationship functions? 2K might be *able* to do that, but doing so would be self-destructive. Remember that 2K wants Firaxis to do its best work, and doing that requires cooperation. Going off and demanding "proof" from the people who actually work there (and have knowledge about this process, unlike you) is stupid.

Ditch the PR crap, thanks. If you were a fan beforehand, you should know how most people hates it.
Steam is not making Civ a better game. It's an intrusive crapastic DRM tool, and there is nothing in it that actually improves a Civ. Nothing that Steam adds is actually relevant to the game.

Steam certainly is popular for a program that "most people hates". 1.3 to 2.3 million concurrent users is a ton. You'd think it'd be less popular if it was just a "intrusive craptastic DRM tool" (which it simply isn't compared to the usual disk-based DRM). And "nothing it that improves a civ" is strictly opinion, which you didn't even justify at all.

It was chosen to keep a tight leash on piracy and used sales. It was chosen because it restricts consumers uses of the game. It was not chosen FOR consumers. Don't imagine we're naive enough to buy the PR excuses. I know it's your job, but it's seriously insulting.

What? There are very, very few PC games which can be sold used these days. Most games utilize CD keys or online activation to make used sales fairly irrelevant. And steam's DRM is pretty equivalent to the usual securom DRM when it comes to stopping piracy (that is, it doesn't). I don't think I even have to address the last sentences. Insulting the person who's your main contact with the company(s) that are making this game isn't going to get you anywhere.

 

[Senethro]

What, 2K came, said "we're going to use Steam" and Firaxis answered "Duh, well, you're the boss", which makes it a decision by both team ?

Ditch the PR crap, thanks. If you were a fan beforehand, you should know how most people hates it.
Steam is not making Civ a better game. It's an intrusive crapastic DRM tool, and there is nothing in it that actually improves a Civ. Nothing that Steam adds is actually relevant to the game.

It was chosen to keep a tight leash on piracy and used sales. It was chosen because it restricts consumers uses of the game. It was not chosen FOR consumers. Don't imagine we're naive enough to buy the PR excuses. I know it's your job, but it's seriously insulting.

Not even the polls on this site showed most people hating Steam. Why do you think 2K Greg is being insincere?

 

[White Elk]

Perhaps my ire over Civ5 having an exclusive ESD agreement with steam, should be focused on take-two not 2k (though, I do think it fair to criticize them over their marketing method). I don't know where to place the exclusivity blame. But it's not something that I think Firaxis would support when given a choice. I do however see Firaxis wanting to use steamworks dev tools. Problem is, to use those tools a dev must bundle the steam client and steam store into their game. That is a choice made by Valve. It doesn't have to be that way. Impulse::Reactor does most, if not all, of what steamworks does. But the client does not have to run, and the Impulse store does not have to be included in the game. Its a vendor neutral solution that is competition friendly. It does not grant market advantage. steam on the other hand, uses a method which is meant to stifle competition. Competition fosters innovation, and allows for a wider range of choice. It is a good thing for us, the end user. With a little tongue in cheek I'll say that Impulse is Democratic, whereas steam is fascist ;~p

Firaxis and Stardock have some friendly relation. And Stardocks president and CEO, Brad Wardell was going to create mods for Civ5. Which would have been a great thing seeing as how one of Brads stengths is in the designing and programming of AI and game mechanics. The guy knows his stuff and has an entire game development company behind him. What better way to promote a games modability, than by having an industry figure such as Brad Wardell making mods for the game. Now, Stardock has been working on a set of dev tools called Impulse::Reactor. It seems natural that Firaxis would want to support Stardock by incorporating Reactor into the game instead of steamworks. Particularly since Reactor is so much more customer friendly than steamworks (compare then decide for yourself). Fostering increased collaboration between Stardock (GalCiv) and Firaxis (Civ) makes a bit of sense.

The decision to ESD Civ5 exclusively through steam, negatively impacts developers who also have ESD storefronts. And by forcing the steam client to run, Valve gains an underhanded advantage over its competitors. Customers must instal the steam store even for CD/DVD installs (brick and mortar vendors still outsell digital by a large margin). Devs who use steamworks are forced to accept steams pricing. steam can reduce the price of game titles without the devs consent. Currently the ESD vendors get a percentage of a sale (around 30% now). steam currently has about 70% of the ESD market. Valve can reduce the profitability of competing developers by having steam price their games low. steams profits go up via increased sales, competing developers profits go down. Valves development coffers grow, while their competitors budgets for new games shrink. There are other negative aspects to steams growing control over the gaming market. It's not a good thing for us gamers to see an ESD like steam gain such advantage.

The exclusive arrangement between take-two/2k and steam is unacceptable to me. I want consumer choice, and I want the freedom to support the vendor of my choice. This exclusive arrangement leaves me with one choice... don't buy Civ5. In specific cases, my hardline stance against software piracy softens (though I personally won't pirate someones IP). My respect for take-two/2k and Valve/steam diminishes. My appreciation for, and interest in alternate ESD's increase. I've installed Impulse and am looking to buy games I would not have otherwise bought. There is the Civ5 void to fill afterall. But even more, is that a strong desire to empower steams competition has risen within me. I've been impassioned to help see that Impulse, and others who do right by their customers, prosper against the dastardly juggernaut which is steam. I think it inevitable that steam will diminish unless it lessens its grip. But I want to help see it happen sooner than later.

 

[White Elk]

Not even the polls on this site showed most people hating Steam. Why do you think 2K Greg is being insincere?

Why do you keep bringing up hate? Its not accurate. It polarizes the issue. Dillutes worthwhile discussions. Encites flaming.


I get a completely different take on the polls. Currently this poll shows...

43% ~ won't/might not buy due to steam (97 votes)
15% ~ will/may buy because of steam (34)
40% ~ steam has no affect (90)​

We can't accuratly determine how the neutrals came about their vote. We kind of know how they feel about Civ5, but their position on steam is unclear. I'm sure its a mixed bag. We do however know that 97 (43%) have been negatively affected by steam . While only 34 (15%) have been postively affected. Even if you add the neutrals to the favorables, you still get 43% of the voters declaring that steam has negatively impacted their decision to buy Civ5.



I thought this poll to be potentually accurate, but it was locked before going very far.

62% ~ prefer a non-steam version (17)
37% ~ prefer steam (10)​

And this poll is currently the largest, having thus far recieved 448 votes...

43% ~ "I would buy it - but only without forced Steam" (194)
39% ~ "Yes, Steam(works) is ok" (177)
14% ~ "Yes, grumbling" (67)
02% ~ "No, never planned to buy it " (10)
_____________________________________________
57% are not happy about steam
39% are happy about it​

No matter how you slice it; 40-60% of those who have voted, have expressed negativity
towards the decision to bundle steam with Civ5. I find that to be significant!

.

 

[Senethro]

The decision to ESD Civ5 exclusively through steam, negatively impacts developers who also have ESD storefronts. And by forcing the steam client to run, Valve gains an underhanded advantage over its competitors. Customers must instal the steam store even for CD/DVD installs (brick and mortar vendors still outsell digital by a large margin). Devs who use steamworks are forced to accept steams pricing. steam can reduce the price of game titles without the devs consent. Currently the ESD vendors get a percentage of a sale (around 30% now). steam currently has about 70% of the ESD market. Valve can reduce the profitability of competing developers by having steam price their games low. steams profits go up via increased sales, competing developers profits go down. Valves development coffers grow, while their competitors budgets for new games shrink. There are other negative aspects to steams growing control over the gaming market. It's not a good thing for us gamers to see an ESD like steam gain such advantage.

I knew the paranoia couldn't stay submerged for long. You're attributing evil plans to Valve which have no basis in reality.

The publisher (as in retail publisher) sets the Steam price, not Valve except for Valve's own games. Makes it a bit difficult for your claim that Valve fiddle the prices and sales.

Moderator Action: Don't call other users paranoid
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Akka]

No matter how you slice it; 40-60% of those who have voted, have expressed negativity
towards the decision to bundle steam with Civ5. I find that to be significant!

Well, I'm afraid that facts don't really matter when fanboyism is in action.
Though I'd always scratch my head in disbelief when seeing people who are HAPPY to be data-mined and have their rights of use reduced.
Guess masochism takes a lot of forms.

 

[White Elk]

I knew the paranoia couldn't stay submerged for long. You're attributing evil plans to Valve which have no basis in reality.

The publisher (as in retail publisher) sets the Steam price, not Valve except for Valve's own games. Makes it a bit difficult for your claim that Valve fiddle the prices and sales.

Tell that to the developers and publishers who I share my concerns with.

I've been doing alot of reading on the subject of DRM and digital distribution lately. I've read a host of developer and publisher interviews on these subjects. Heard it straight from the horses mouth. But it seems that this article may be the only one that I bookmarked. Chew on that one and then google around the net for yourself. And read a handful of articles with interviews from the devs and publishers that boycotted Modern Warfare 2 because steam is a forced bundle. With a little work, you'll find a great many opinions from industry figures out there. You'll find a balance of differing opinions which you can inform yourself with and then decide for yourself. I state my opinion based on my research. But you keep using the strawman cards of hate and paranoia to focus on the poster not the thoughts. I don't know if your intentionally trolling, or just don't want to put much energy into the discussion, or something else??


Brad Wardell interviewd by Neoseeker... (bolding by me)

I've snipped parts of the article. Read it in full here.

"The problem in my experience, based on what we're hearing from developers, is you'll see online, "Oh look how great Steam is, they're doing this stuff on sale!" Developers complain they just put stuff on sale, they don't even talk to them."

But "It's really easy for Steam or whoever to put something on sale, cause they didn't have to develop the game. Notice they don't put Left 4 Dead on sale for $5 but they'll put the entire THQ catalogue on sale for $50. "Wow, they're blowing everyone else away with their sales!" [laughs] It's easy for them to do that; it doesn't cost them anything. Of course if the developer complains, they can say, "Oh, well, we'll happily take your title off of Steam." Now imagine the scenario where you've bundled Steamworks and you have to be on Steam -- that's even worse; now you're totally at their mercy, so to speak."

"[If Steam took over], it would be bad on a number of levels. A lot of people like Wal-mart for example; a lot of people dont like Wal-mart. If everything is sold by one retailer, they have amazing amounts of control. Even as is, Wal-mart has so much control on the retail side, they decide for everytbody...this is true..they decide what the dimensions of retail boxes are. Ever wonder why PC retail boxes are now skinny? They decided that. So what happens if you're someone who likes big thick manuals? Can't do that now, it can't fit in the box. They can decide if certain genres are no longer going to be made, pricing, all kinds of stuff like that."

Moderator Action: Calling other posters Trolls is flaming
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[arstal]

I can see why 2K has been caught off-guard by the reaction. They looked at Steam and quite innocently saw it as popular with consumers and convenient for them. However, I imagine the consumer base at Steam largely consists of juveniles and teens, a group not exactly known for their consumer acumen, which Steam has exploited. The Civ consumer base is quite a bit different, and adults are more important in marketing terms than they might be in the case of, let's say, Dangerous High School Girls in Trouble. They're not going to appreciate the same level of consumer exploitation.

Dangerous High School Girls in Trouble does not need to be mocked, it's worth the $3 I spent for it (on Impulse)

You're absolutely right that there is a difference in tastes, and that the MW2 userbase and Civ userbases are different.

That said, I don't think 90% of the Civ purchasers will care, as they buy it at Wal-Mart, don't come here, and won't know what Steam is. I hope I'm wrong, but I've learned never to underestimate the willingness of the masses to throw away their rights. That's not even counting the Steam Sunshine Squad cheerleaders.

 

[Senethro]

Tell that to the developers and publishers who I share my concerns with.

Who?

I've been doing alot of reading on the subject of DRM and digital distribution lately. I've read a host of developer and publisher interviews on these subjects. Heard it straight from the horses mouth.

Who?

But it seems that this article may be the only one that I bookmarked.

welp,

Chew on that one and then google around the net for yourself.

What, do your part of the arguement for you?

And read a handful of articles with interviews from the devs and publishers that boycotted Modern Warfare 2 because steam is a forced bundle.

Who? And do you mean retail publishers or digital?

With a little work, you'll find a great many opinions from industry figures out there.

Yeah, I find many positive like a bunch countering Randy Pitchford.
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/10/12/the-steamy-issue-of-digital-distribution/

You'll find a balance of differing opinions which you can inform yourself with and then decide for yourself. I state my opinion based on my research. But you keep using the strawman cards of hate and paranoia to focus on the poster not the thoughts. I don't know if your intentionally trolling, or just don't want to put much energy into the discussion, or something else??

Its getting to the point where I could just straight up copy and paste previous better posts I've done.

Brad Wardell interviewd by Neoseeker... (bolding by me)

Who?

Oh, Brad Wardell. Wait, Brad Wardell the guy in charge of a competitor to Steam? He'll be unbiased I'm sure. Why is it him saying these things and not the actual devs hes claiming to speak for?

 

[White Elk]

Who?? The who is who I said it was. Brad Wardell, publisher, developer, programmer, beekeeper ;~P. You asked for source I provided it. I have read your link and found it interesting. I've read many like it. That article was written by John Walker, Occupation: Blogger, writer, critic. Speciality: Funny words, emotions. He's just a guy with an opinion who gets paid for sensationalist journalism. He's not a part of the industry. Not saying his POV is worthless. But I don't value his opinion the same as I do those from industry figures.

Derek Smart, lead developer and president of 3000AD, Inc. wrote an extensive piece at Gamasutra about that steam boycott. The piece is heavilly slanted pro-steam. I think that John Walkers blog, and many others like it, are based off Dereks article. I respect Dereks opinion, and value his knowledge and experiance in the industry. But I disagree with him here. As do some devs as evidenced in the articles discussion. I come to my opinion by reading a variety of informed opinions from multiple sides. It is based on reasonable research and careful thought - not wistful reaction. So sue me!

A great source for hearing directly from game developers is Gamasutra. Devs talk shop here. Everything from gaming philosophies to nuts and bolts mechanics. And you will find them debating each other in the comment sections of articles. Sometimes they write feature articles. Other times Gamasutra editors write up a news article about them, and the devs add their 2 cents to the ensuing discussion. The article discussions often get very detailed. There you will find a variety of opposing opinions. In Dereks article, you will find Brad Wardell and others debating against Dereks POV. These discussions are a gold mine of pertinent inside information, and a great source from which to leap off into other points of research. Good stuff!


As to Brad Wardell being a competitor to steam... How does that change anything? All dev sources outside of Valve are going to be competitors. Who better to learn about dev opinions than the devs themselves??


As to your "welp" comment in response to my comment about having only the one bookmark... I read ALOT! I bookmark ALOT! My bookmark files become unwieldy without constant prunning. For the most part, once I'm satisfied that I've extracted all the info I seek, and have no further reason for it I delete the bookmark. Sometimes I'll spend a couple hours researching something and open a bunch of tabs to articles and references. Then at the end of that days research I'll cull that herd down to the best sources and revist them on follow up days. Once done with a subject I sometimes do some writeups of the digested and now condensed info, and then delete links to those exhausted sources. My research queue is looooong. I sidetracked from existing priorities to learn more about this digital distribution thing. I've since branched into other points of interest like learning more about Gabe Newell and Brad Wardell along with their companies Valve and Stardock. And much more. I don't want to go backwards to do your research for you. Its time for me to move on. I'm satisfied that I have researched enough to have develop my own informed opinion.

 

[Senethro]

Thats great that you feel so satisfied but the question is still Who?

A biased competitor who says others distributed by Steam are displeased and claiming to speak for them but without giving names.

 

[Beardy Dan]

Brad Wardell interviewd by Neoseeker... (bolding by me)

I've snipped parts of the article. Read it in full here.
]

WOW the owner of one of Steams competitors Doesnt like Steam?
In related news The Head of Pepsi says he doesn't like the taste of Coke!

I USED to have a great deal of Respect for Frogboy until recently. Complaining that CiV will come bundled with steamworks (which in NO way prevents Impulse, D2D, other Online sellers or bricks & mortar stores from selling it btw) and then keeping Elemental Impulse exclusive is taking the piss. Add to that they are doing a Pre-order to Beta thing, Unfortunately as a European if I want to help them make a better game and get a hard copy of the manual I Have to pay over twice as much as a US customer. I have asked if there is/will be a Euro distributor a couple of times on the forum but no reply.

 

[TK42I]

Back to the original OP: I do think that many fan forums get a little overheated and it is good to step back and realize that the passion we have for Civ comes from the great job the devs did in the past and the hope that it will continue in the future.

Every game that I've tracked pre-launch that has moved to Steam has had a segment of their fans show concern. The ebb and flow of the posts on this site seem to follow the same pattern. In the end, most of those fans eventually accept the positive aspects of Steam and move onto the next issue of the day.

Your concerns are all heard back at "HQ" (meaning both Firaxis and 2K.) We all care about the community a lot. I mean they hired me specifically to connect with the community even more!

I acknowledge that you have concerns. I would hope the fact that I'm here should make that pretty clear! I do not regurgitate from a script. Everything I have said and will say is honest, and in my own words.

It is unfortunate that getting answers to you guys sometimes takes longer than you'd like. It's longer than I'd like as well, but that's just the reality of these things. Dev is very busy making the game, so getting answers from them can take time. Also, the game isn't finished which means some questions just don't even have an answer. But rest assured that I'm doing everything I can to get those answers.

But again, your comments and concerns are definitely being heard.

And finally, I think I'm still new enough that I can use the "I'm still getting up to speed on everything" excuse

2K Greg: I'm still concerned about the lack of professionalism on the main civ website and civwiki concerning the civilization descriptions. I hope it gets addressed soon. See here.

 

[2K Greg]

2K Greg: I'm still concerned about the lack of professionalism on the main civ website and civwiki concerning the civilization descriptions. I hope it gets addressed soon. See here.

I actually did respond in that thread when we changed the Ottoman description on the website. It's gotten pretty large so I don't blame you for missing it!