A closer look at the "War on Christmas"

[Lucius Julius]

Long live Christmas and it's original meanings! Christmas never even originated as a holiday of commercialism, that was a relatively recent development, a petty attempt by companies everywhere to earn more money during Christmastime.

-Lucius Julius, Emperor of the Roman Empire (Medieval Byzantine Empire as it is sometimes called)

 

[Newbunkle]

A lot of us athiests just love to celebrate Xmas because its just a tradition, not to mention a great excuse for a party. It doesn't have to hold any religious significance to the people taking part. There is no conspiracy, its just a natural change in the event to represent the people enjoying it.

As for the Nativity plays being banned... GOOD! I was forced to take part in one when I was at school, despite not being a Christian. I didn't want to, but I didn't understand my rights. Now that I know better, I can see its a form of child abuse (obviously, not if a Christian kid chooses to do it). They would never have dreamed of forcing a Muslim kid to do it.

 

[zxcvbnm]

Christmas is a roman festival made religious and then commercial.

 

[warpus]

Geez, I hate that juvenile argument that always came up in elementary school and junior high debates. "Christmas is really a pagan winter holiday"
I just can't roll my eyes enough to show my disappointment at seeing intelligent older men make this "argument". Obviously, according to tradition, Christians believe that Jesus was born in late December and so we celebrate his birth at that time. The fact that there used to be a pagan holiday at that time is irrelevant, even if that holiday was the very reason for celebrating Christmas at that time. As Christians, we are celebrating the birth of Christ, regardless of any history associated with the date. So why would this "winter-solstice" argument matter? Does it add anything to the discussion? That is a rhetorical question, because obviously it does not.

Jesus was born in June or July. Christmas is a symbolic celebration of Jesus' birth - it is not meant to fall on the day that he was born.

The bringing up of pre-Christian solstice festivals is a valid argument in this case, because that's what Christmas was, before it was renamed by the Christians and slightly altered.. The celebration has continued to change over the years, and it will continue to do so. Nobody "owns" the holiday, and to suggest that we're trying to take the Christian roots away from Christmas is hypocritical, as the roots of Christmas aren't Christian at all.

Europeans have been celebrating every winter long before Christianity became the dominant religion there. Western civilization will continue to do this.. The celebration will continue to evolve; it is dynamic.

There is no war on Christmas. You celebrate it the way you want to, and I'll do it my way. There doesn't have to be conflict.

 

[Irish Caesar]

Jesus was born in June or July. Christmas is a symbolic celebration of Jesus' birth - it is not meant to fall on the day that he was born.

I thought it was generally held that Jesus was born in the spring sometime...

There is a tradition that the Annunciation and the day of Creation are both March 25 (which is also the day Dante begins his tour of the afterlife in Holy Week of 1300). Does anyone know how old this tradition is? It was mentioned briefly in the notes at the back of my copy of Inferno.

 

[mdwh]

Personally, I'm not sure that fewer schools doing nativity plays is a sign of anything less than just respecting the secular nature of public schools. They're a public place that children have to go to, so it doesn't seem to me like the most appropriate place for such a performance...

I agree. Christians form 90% of the population in the US; in the UK, the Church is still the official religion, they have bishops in the house of lords, daily Christian worship is a legal requirement in state schools, and we still have laws against things like blasphemy.

Yet all I hear is "Help help, we're being repressed" because some people don't say "Happy Christmas".

Also see UK 'must celebrate Christianity' with more comments from the same MP - apparentely Christianity is being repressed because it's "difficult to buy greeting cards with references to Christ... Advent calendars are extremely hard to find."

Cry me a river. I don't think these people have any clue what real repression means.

Of course, he's right that parties like the BNP use these tactics to try to gain support. So do The Daily Mail. I'm not sure how this is solved by having the Government behave like the BNP!

 

[mdwh]

Geez, I hate that juvenile argument that always came up in elementary school and junior high debates. "Christmas is really a pagan winter holiday"
I just can't roll my eyes enough to show my disappointment at seeing intelligent older men make this "argument". Obviously, according to tradition, Christians believe that Jesus was born in late December and so we celebrate his birth at that time. The fact that there used to be a pagan holiday at that time is irrelevant, even if that holiday was the very reason for celebrating Christmas at that time. As Christians, we are celebrating the birth of Christ, regardless of any history associated with the date. So why would this "winter-solstice" argument matter? Does it add anything to the discussion? That is a rhetorical question, because obviously it does not.

Geez, I hate that juvenile argument that always came up in elementary school and junior high debates. "This time of year is really about Poor Baby Jesus, and people are waging a War On Christmas by not celebrating him".
I just can't roll my eyes enough to show my disappointment at seeing intelligent older men make this "argument". Obviously, according to tradition, people have had festivities at this time of year for thousands of years. The fact that there used to be a Christian holiday at that time is irrelevant, even if that holiday was the very reason for why people now celebrate at this time. As secular people, we are having fun regardless of any history associated with the date. So why would this "War on Christmas" argument matter? Does it add anything to the discussion? That is a rhetorical question, because obviously it does not.

 

[Homie]

Geez, I hate that juvenile argument that always came up in elementary school and junior high debates. "This time of year is really about Poor Baby Jesus, and people are waging a War On Christmas by not celebrating him".
I just can't roll my eyes enough to show my disappointment at seeing intelligent older men make this "argument". Obviously, according to tradition, people have had festivities at this time of year for thousands of years. The fact that there used to be a Christian holiday at that time is irrelevant, even if that holiday was the very reason for why people now celebrate at this time. As secular people, we are having fun regardless of any history associated with the date. So why would this "War on Christmas" argument matter? Does it add anything to the discussion? That is a rhetorical question, because obviously it does not.

You answer my critique of a "primitive" argument by using a "primitive" debate tactic, lame. The old "Use his response and replace word X with word Y", über lame. Anyone that has been on a debating forum as long as you have (2000+ posts) should know better.

















To show how predictable you are, I will predict what your response to this post will be: You will mock/critique my use of the word "lame". Was I right? Obviously you won't do so after reading this, but you were thinking it right after reading the first part of my post, right?

 

[Slaughter]

Oh my God, not HOLLAND!!!!!!!!

They have LEGAL PROSTITUTION THERE?!! How I can go and get me a job, a life and such there? I wanna go to Holand!

 

[Newbunkle]

Xmas is the new Christmas. Santa > Jesus.

 

[holy king]

Geez, I hate that juvenile argument that always came up in elementary school and junior high debates. "Christmas is really a pagan winter holiday"
I just can't roll my eyes enough to show my disappointment at seeing intelligent older men make this "argument". Obviously, according to tradition, Christians believe that Jesus was born in late December and so we celebrate his birth at that time. The fact that there used to be a pagan holiday at that time is irrelevant, even if that holiday was the very reason for celebrating Christmas at that time. As Christians, we are celebrating the birth of Christ, regardless of any history associated with the date. So why would this "winter-solstice" argument matter? Does it add anything to the discussion? That is a rhetorical question, because obviously it does not.

seriously, as an "intelligent older man" i'd expect you to acknowledge that christmas and winter solstice are not celebrated at the same time out of coincidence...
you obviuosly either dont know the history or are completely ignorant of the mechanisms of culture...

"believe jesus was born on 24th of december"... tstststs
i guess the worshipping of mary is suggested in the bible itself also, and no cultural phenomenon?

 

[mdwh]

You answer my critique of a "primitive" argument by using a "primitive" debate tactic, lame. The old "Use his response and replace word X with word Y", über lame. Anyone that has been on a debating forum as long as you have (2000+ posts) should know better.

Because sometimes that's the only way to show that an argument isn't fair or valid. Do you agree with my post then? Or is there some reason it doesn't apply when it's turned the other way round?

To show how predictable you are, I will predict what your response to this post will be: You will mock/critique my use of the word "lame". Was I right? Obviously you won't do so after reading this, but you were thinking it right after reading the first part of my post, right?

Well, it was rather predictible that you would continue to just resort to slagging me off rather than debating.

And to think that you are the one criticising other people's debating methods! Stick to debating the issues. If you didn't write in a style that continually treated those with opposing views with contempt ("juvenile argument", "lame"), perhaps people would be less likely to parody it.

I know, let's put in a few graphical smilies, these always mean that someone has the upper hand in a debate:

See, what a fine level of mature non-lame non-juvenile discussion you can have with graphical smilies. Or maybe not.

 

[Homie]

"believe jesus was born on 24th of december"... tstststs

I was making the point that Christmas is the celebration of Christ's birth. According to tradition that is December 24. Do we know for certain when it is? No, the Bible doesn't say, and it is also irrelevant, because the point is that we are celebrating the birth of Christ, not some winter festival, sun god or whatever else.

Well, it was rather predictible that you would continue to just resort to slagging me off rather than debating.

You're the one who started the low-brow debating tactics, I just called you out on it.

 

[The Yankee]

It's two years old, but this is just as timely and scary as ever! Makes a great holiday gift!



Well, someone has to keep it up. Maybe it's just me, but this year's war isn't as intense as it was in past years.

And if anecdotes are accepted, then at the end of the Packers game today, the CBS announcer said "Happy Holidays from Green Bay!"

And there's been a truck blasting out Chanukah songs throughout the neighborhood (which I think is just cool, because it's better than the honking and arguing I usually hear out there)!

 

[JohnRM]

Why billions of people insist on telling their kids the Santa Claus lie, their God only knows.

Anyway, the War on Christmas must be fought, in our schools at least. If families want to celebrate it, they can do so at home, but don't get pissed when my kid doesn't play along and some other children who were lied to find out about it a bit earlier than their parents would like.

 

[warpus]

I thought it was generally held that Jesus was born in the spring sometime...

Either way, he wasn't born in December.

because the point is that we are celebrating the birth of Christ, not some winter festival, sun god or whatever else.

That's not what I celebrate on Christmas.

 

[Quiet Sound]

How's this one?

Link

When Oliver Cromwell, a Puritan, rose to power in England in the 17th century, he passed a law in 1647 that severely punished anyone caught celebrating Christmas.

The Puritans believed that only the Sabbath (Sunday) should be celebrated as a holy day and considered Christmas a decadent celebration with pagan roots. ...

The Puritans, who settled the New England region of the American Colonies before Cromwell's reign, had brought their anti-Christmas sentiments with them. From 1659 to 1681, Christmas was outlawed in Boston.

A lot of us athiests just love to celebrate Xmas because its just a tradition, not to mention a great excuse for a party.

Funny thing, Xmas is a notation originating in Christianity:

Link

Usage Note: Xmas has been used for hundreds of years in religious writing, where the X represents a Greek chi, the first letter of Χριστoς, "Christ." In this use it is parallel to other forms like Xtian, "Christian." But people unaware of the Greek origin of this X often mistakenly interpret Xmas as an informal shortening pronounced (ěks'məs). Many therefore frown upon the term Xmas because it seems to them a commercial convenience that omits Christ from Christmas.

 

[Berzerker]

The Puritans, who settled the New England region of the American Colonies before Cromwell's reign, had brought their anti-Christmas sentiments with them. From 1659 to 1681, Christmas was outlawed in Boston.

Wow

anyway, the Great culture warrior himself, Bill O'Reilly, said Revelation was written 5,000 years ago. Oh yeah, he's a Christian... But I thought he declared victory in the war on Christmas.

 

[holy king]

I was making the point that Christmas is the celebration of Christ's birth. According to tradition that is December 24. Do we know for certain when it is? No, the Bible doesn't say, and it is also irrelevant, because the point is that we are celebrating the birth of Christ, not some winter festival, sun god or whatever else.

nonetheless it originated in winter solstice celebrations...
christs birthday was set in that time because people were celebrating anyway, so better make them celebrate christ than some pagan sun god...