A New Dawn Beta Builds

[jshetley]

Hmm, really? If you declare war on a friend with Ruthless AI, the friend should have a "-4, You Betrayed Us" modifier on them. Then, all other AI's you have met will get a "-1 you are treacherous" because you betrayed a friend. So, the question is who did you declare war on, and what was your previous relationship?

I just opened that game up and declared war on Monty. He was cautious to me but Boudica had her "you are treacherous" go from -3 to -4. And Monty did not get the -4 "you betrayed us" either. He did get a -3 i think with "you declared war on us".

 

[Blackflag421]

I've encountered a strange issue. Betas 4 5 and 6 all had this for me:

RoM with no AND, jungle camps can be placed in advanced start, worldbuilt, and built by workers.
RoM with AND, jungle camps can only be placed in advanced start or worldbuilt, workers don't have the icon to build them (yes, I made sure to have stone tools enabled). Appears to be the same for AI civs, as they've never built a jungle camp. Fast workers, androids, etc also can't build jungle camps.

I re-d/l'd the betas and it still had the issue. Could anyone tell me what's causing this, or at least which files I should be looking at to see why this happens and try to fix it?

 

[jshetley]

Started another game and got same issues. 1st save 1 turn before I declare war. 2nd save as just after war starts. If this is working as designed then i guess i'm through using ruthless ai.

 

[Arakhor]

You do know that you can turn off Ruthless AI and Advanced Diplomacy, right?

 

[dudeSDCA]

Metropolitan Administration. REV: 210
The description says it allows for the 3rd ring of tiles to be worked (e.g., 3 radius later). However, if both Killtech and Jooyo's modmodmods are installed, I don't think it works as Killtech intended (He had said in another post that Large Cities shouldn't be installed with his mod).

I've confirmed that having both installed allows the 3rd ring to be worked based on culture levels and not the metropolitan administration.

Since they're both part of the standard install, the description for the Administration building is strange.

On a related side note, I am personally against the limit of only allowing 1 of every 3 cities to work the 3rd tile ring (since the Administration Building requires 3 City Councils). I understand and support a population level prereq or even advance techs prereq (such as Engineering, Architecture, Algebra, or Invention) in addition to the culture prereq to make sure a player doesn't get to work that 3rd ring too soon; but I really don't like that 2/3 of my cities would be arbitrarily limited in how big they can grow

 

[Arakhor]

They're not any more arbitrarily limited than in the normal game, it's just that one-third of your cities can expand much further than normal.

 

[strategyonly]

Afforess -- I frequently play advanced start, and I LOVE (!!) the big reminder that came up 10 turns in reminding people to check the ROM options (and that you got rid of the shortcut).

One additional thought -- I didn't see it this time, but while the buttons give you a quick jump into ROM options, maybe a reminder, "The options can be accessed anytime using CTR+SHIFT+O" or something like that..

No darn way, i hate that darn options shortcut reminder always popping up, its a distraction just like that darn revolving earth, thats why i changed the "waiting" icon also, there is already to much of a distraction to keep messing with things like that, (my opinion).

Of course i am talking about the one on the bottom of the page for the default thing. The BIG one has only shown up once in five games, so no biggy there.

 

[dudeSDCA]

They're not any more arbitrarily limited than in the normal game, it's just that one-third of your cities can expand much further than normal.

Not sure what you mean. I've been playing with Jooyo's Larger Cities ModMod for a very long time, and it's been a part of AND since the beginning (I think). In fact, looking for a mod that would allow me to work that 3rd ring was how I stumbled upon ROM originally.

What I don't like is that an update to another mod (building upgrades) adds a new building line that changes the behavior of Jooyo's mod and restricts how I can use that mod.

The issue Killtech was trying to solve was that the cities get too big, too fast, and then it messes with the balance of the game. What I was proposing is rather a restriction (e.g., you can't have Larger Cities for all cities if Killtech's modmod is installed), I was offering that you can delay the expansion into the 3rd ring through technology prereqs and population prereqs.

Additionally, in small games (I sometimes play small on my laptop on travel), this prereq will cause a lot of hurt. And even Killtech admitted some of his changes don't work so well on faster games or on small games (he plays a larger map on snail pace I think).

Further -- there is a conflict in the standard installer -- Jooyo's cultural requirements seem to cause the game to ignore the need for the metropolitan administration to unlock the 3rd ring -- which is confusing (esp. to new players).

 

[Afforess]

Revision 211, After your civ has been destroyed, and took control over an AI's civilization, load a save which before your civ has been destroyed will make the game turn freeze. ( always hints "wait for other players" )

That's a known bug with RevDCM

Still playing Beta 6. The Orchard issue is still there.

Revision 211:
1. Orchard stll can not be builded correctly.

Which orchard issue are you referring to? I'm 99% sure I fixed it a while ago. You should be able to build orchards on land regardless if there are already forests.

BuildingUpgrade issue: on faster games, you'll upgrade Elder Council to School of Scribes meaning you can't build Moon Observatory.

Recommend: Making the prereq for Moon observatory ANY combination of 4 elder councils OR School of Scribes

The moon observatory doesn't require any elder councils AFAIK, and I just removed it anyway.


About the Pyramids. I was thinking about it giving +1 health globally to negate the unhealthiness from the River Regulation unhealthiness, so that it would be a +1 on all river commerce. Seem like a fair compromise?

 

[Afforess]

Not sure what you mean. I've been playing with Jooyo's Larger Cities ModMod for a very long time, and it's been a part of AND since the beginning (I think). In fact, looking for a mod that would allow me to work that 3rd ring was how I stumbled upon ROM originally.

What I don't like is that an update to another mod (building upgrades) adds a new building line that changes the behavior of Jooyo's mod and restricts how I can use that mod.

The issue Killtech was trying to solve was that the cities get too big, too fast, and then it messes with the balance of the game. What I was proposing is rather a restriction (e.g., you can't have Larger Cities for all cities if Killtech's modmod is installed), I was offering that you can delay the expansion into the 3rd ring through technology prereqs and population prereqs.

Additionally, in small games (I sometimes play small on my laptop on travel), this prereq will cause a lot of hurt. And even Killtech admitted some of his changes don't work so well on faster games or on small games (he plays a larger map on snail pace I think).

Further -- there is a conflict in the standard installer -- Jooyo's cultural requirements seem to cause the game to ignore the need for the metropolitan administration to unlock the 3rd ring -- which is confusing (esp. to new players).

Metropolitan Administration. REV: 210
The description says it allows for the 3rd ring of tiles to be worked (e.g., 3 radius later). However, if both Killtech and Jooyo's modmodmods are installed, I don't think it works as Killtech intended (He had said in another post that Large Cities shouldn't be installed with his mod).

I've confirmed that having both installed allows the 3rd ring to be worked based on culture levels and not the metropolitan administration.

Since they're both part of the standard install, the description for the Administration building is strange.

On a related side note, I am personally against the limit of only allowing 1 of every 3 cities to work the 3rd tile ring (since the Administration Building requires 3 City Councils). I understand and support a population level prereq or even advance techs prereq (such as Engineering, Architecture, Algebra, or Invention) in addition to the culture prereq to make sure a player doesn't get to work that 3rd ring too soon; but I really don't like that 2/3 of my cities would be arbitrarily limited in how big they can grow

Okay, hear is how the Metropolitan Administration works:

If you are playing with Larger cities, and it's a radius three city, the build just has no effect. Influential culture level still unlocks the 3rd radius like normal. If you build the Metropolitan Administration in a city that only has a 2nd or 1st radius, it automatically expands to the 3rd radius.

If you aren't playing with Larger Cities, then when you build the Metropolitan Administration, you city expands to the third radius anyway. The Metropolitan Administration is the only way to get to the third culture level if Larger Cities are off.

Understand?

I've encountered a strange issue. Betas 4 5 and 6 all had this for me:

RoM with no AND, jungle camps can be placed in advanced start, worldbuilt, and built by workers.
RoM with AND, jungle camps can only be placed in advanced start or worldbuilt, workers don't have the icon to build them (yes, I made sure to have stone tools enabled). Appears to be the same for AI civs, as they've never built a jungle camp. Fast workers, androids, etc also can't build jungle camps.

I re-d/l'd the betas and it still had the issue. Could anyone tell me what's causing this, or at least which files I should be looking at to see why this happens and try to fix it?

Jungle Camps are disabled with Better RoM.

I just opened that game up and declared war on Monty. He was cautious to me but Boudica had her "you are treacherous" go from -3 to -4. And Monty did not get the -4 "you betrayed us" either. He did get a -3 i think with "you declared war on us".

I'll have to double check the logic then, but I thought it was working correctly.

 

[NBAfan]

Where did the Metropolitan Administration come from?

 

[Afforess]

Building Upgrade Chains.

 

[Afforess]

I just opened that game up and declared war on Monty. He was cautious to me but Boudica had her "you are treacherous" go from -3 to -4. And Monty did not get the -4 "you betrayed us" either. He did get a -3 i think with "you declared war on us".

You were right; the logic was messed up. I've fixed it now.

 

[Blackflag421]

Ah, that would explain why I can't build them. Curious why they're disabled, but...

if they're disabled by better RoM, why can I place them in advanced start?

 

[JosEPh_II]

why do you think of further expansion when your science rate is already down to 80%? wait until you get techs that unlock some better economy buildings and your cities have grown a bit while you built up their economy. if you keep expanding you will just slow down the rate at which you discover new techs and cripple your economy even further because your cities will lack the more advanced buildings that come from researching. overexpansion is deadly.

(as far as i'm noticed the AI understands that now but only with revolution option on because only it pays attention to the science/tax rate to prevent 'financial problems')

Because of the scarcity of valuable resources, that is the driving reason to keep eXpanding. If I wait the AI gets the Iron and I don't. It' Really that Simple.

I've noticed for sometime now that the AI vs player placement an # of resources nearby is weighted in favor of the AI. Therefore I have less resources to work with. And Only thru eXpansion can I claim the resources I Need to Survive. Now this strategy may make playing Deity a challenge but on Noble it's a Deadly Handicap ( I DO like to win occasionally you know).

I understand the eXpansion Rush, but when I have 3 cities and the AI has anywhere from 3 to 7 cities I'm in serious trouble if the AI's that have more cities (and therefore more resources) decide I'm "unfriendly".

Seriously you guys that play at Emperor and above have to rein in your playstyle and imposition of your way of thinking or you will kill off the Noble and lower level players. Do you understand that? What works for you may Kill me! This is why I stated a long time ago that ALL betatesting should be on Noble level, so you can see how your mod works on the avg level. If it's balanced there (Noble) it Should scale properly for the other levels.

And one finally point,

(as far as i'm noticed the AI understands that now but only with revolution option on because only it pays attention to the science/tax rate to prevent 'financial problems')

I don't play with Rev On. And the AI does just fine in this regard On Noble level.

@Aforress,
I don't have Barb Civ or Barb World activated, nor Raging Barbs. So the "normal" Barbs from what J_Dog did are very strong. I'm adapting, but I'm also chaffing.

Does THE PYRAMIDS (WW) give it's bonus to all cities in the Empire or only to the City it's built in? In my game it only gave it's bonus to the city that built it. (I haven't caught up on all the postings yet either)

EDIT:

Jungle Camps are disabled with Better RoM.

CRAP!

Add this in with Watermills, Workshops, etc Removing Forests and I'm beginning to wonder (imho) if Better Rom is actually better than what? I don't like these changes. They stifle growth and choices to player and AI alike. :/

JosEPh

 

[Afforess]

Because of the scarcity of valuable resources, that is the driving reason to keep eXpanding. If I wait the AI gets the Iron and I don't. It' Really that Simple.

I've noticed for sometime now that the AI vs player placement an # of resources nearby is weighted in favor of the AI.

Trust me, they are not designed to be in anyone's favor. If it seems so, It's just a cognitive bias.

Seriously you guys that play at Emperor and above have to rein in your playstyle and imposition of your way of thinking or you will kill off the Noble and lower level players. Do you understand that? What works for you may Kill me! This is why I stated a long time ago that ALL betatesting should be on Noble level, so you can see how your mod works on the avg level. If it's balanced there (Noble) it Should scale properly for the other levels.

If I can achieve a point where the AI can beat humans at Noble difficulty, I'd be proud. I'm not going to dumb down the AI, and I haven't been giving the AI handicaps. If the game is harder than regular BTS, they simply play at a lower difficulty. There's no shame in that.

Does THE PYRAMIDS (WW) give it's bonus to all cities in the Empire or only to the City it's built in? In my game it only gave it's bonus to the city that built it. (I haven't caught up on all the postings yet either)

JosEPh

IDK, but I'm reverting that change back to the way RoM used to be, so it does't really matter.

 

[winthrowe]

bug or misunderstanding: the equestrian guild is supposed to give me a free horse wherever it is, so I can build mounted units correct? I have no horse, so I traded for the guild, but I'm not getting a resource.

 

[os79]

Joseph, I play with Flexible Difficulty and Noble as the maximum. And I find myself steamrolling AIs, even when I have no copper. As long as I have Obsidian, I'm fine until I get to Iron Working after I get Confucius and Military Training techs. That is a long tech journey before I get to Iron. So, if you have obsidian you should be able to steamroll AIs in your games easily at Noble level.

I simply don't understand your difficulty at Noble level . Not implying anything here, OK .

 

[schack]

I've been playing 1.74b5 for a bit now, and discovered a few things out of the ordinary.
The game is Giant map (PW2), Prince difficulty, Epic speed.

1)I'm now in 1930 and just about done researching Physics. I thought at first maybe it's just a fluke and I was being rubbish, but as I looked closer, it dawned on me that while I was playing on Epic speed, turn increments were still 5 years. I know you've changed settings for Epic speed amongst others, so I had a look in Civ4GameSpeedInfo.xml, to check.
First off, it seems that it should change from 5 year increments to 4 year increments in 625 AD, which it obviously hasn't. Furthermore, it seems with the current definitions, the game will end in... 2281.25. This seems somewhat off. I checked the SVN trunk to see if it was a fluke, but it's the same in the current revision. I'm quite puzzled, because not only does the XML definition not add up to standard game years, but the game doesn't even seem to follow the definitions. This one's very puzzling.
The timeline seemed very, very, very accurate up until the medieval period around 650-750. That might well coincide with it "forgetting" to make turn increments shorter around that time. Unfortunately I took a massive stint from 260 AD to 1560 AD so I have no intermediate savegames to check on date increments.
Update: I set it to autoplay, and in 2000 AD it changed to 4 year turn increments.

2) About guilds, I've noticed my log saying they've randomly been founded, often in my cities, while I have done no such thing. Nor have I built the prerequisite(s), much less had a Great Person to inaugurate it. I can however build Guild Masters, but they can't actually spread the guild. Check the Master Clerk stationed in Toulouse in the attached savegame.

3)I'd turned off Flexible Difficulty, but I kept getting info in my log saying "Difficulty increased". Apparently I've been playing on Deity for most of the game, but it honestly doesn't feel that way. RoM Options says Flexible Difficulty is however enabled. Not entirely sure what to make of it.

Other than that, it feels very smooth and I was especially impressed with how well the game followed the timeline, up until said point. The amount of different buildings never feels too overwhelming on slower speeds and it just feels like the best incarnation of Civ4 so far.

 

[JosEPh_II]

If I can achieve a point where the AI can beat humans at Noble difficulty, I'd be proud.

I think you've done that.

I'm not going to dumb down the AI, and I haven't been giving the AI handicaps.

Don't want AI handicapped, nor the Player On Noble level is my point. This level should be level playing ground, and That is My point. Is my concept of Noble level wrong? Isn't Noble level the "Average" level where AI and Player are on equal standing? :scratchhead:

If the game is harder than regular BTS, then simply play at a lower difficulty. There's no shame in that.

This is Why I play RoM and/or AND not vanilla BtS.

Trust me, they are not designed to be in anyone's favor. If it seems so, It's just a cognitive bias.

I beg to disagree. (I guess I should figure out how to post screenies to prove my point.) I have gone into WB and looked at the AI's Starting cities vs My starting City and I can show you that they have anywhere from 3 to 5 resources in their Fat X while my starting City may only have 2 or ,if I get lucky, 3 resources. Plus in the area of placement the AI has more resources than the player. If that's a cognitive bias then what's a real bias? This has been going on for sometime now and Not just this beta. It's the Reason I Need to Expand as fast or faster than the AI. To catch up in resources. This current game is on the RoM Balanced Map by the way.

Edit: @os79,
I don't use Flex diff. I got Iron resource around 1800BC. I had discovered 2 sources of Iron but no copper. I was racing a nearby AI to get the Iron before they did. They had copper and obsidian. I had a source of obsidian bu could not develop it (get it into cultural borders) because of aggressive barbs. (I was too busy defending to develop city's cultural borders, unit production was all I could do to stave off barbs).

I've kept track of the Techs I've researched so far and those I acquired thru trade. I was researching Meditation (the 27th tech I researched) when I finally acquired iron and got that obsidian resource developed. I had acquired 11 more techs thru trades and Goodie huts. I can not steamroll any AI at this time. I have just finally started to put down all the barbs. My Capitol City is a size 12 and I'm fighting red and green face problems Otherwise it would be pouring out units.

Sometimes I can breeze thru on Noble other times No. And I find that it's my initial starting placement With the # of available resources that dictates which way the Noble level game goes.

My Civics at this point are barely above the starting set because there are too many negatives to overcome with those I like to use to implement them . Republic is damaged by too many redfaces, while fascist gives happy faces? Someones thinking is backwards there in my book. I give a Big Huh! on that one.

JosEPh