A New Dawn Beta Builds

[zoommooz]

#1 We will see...

#2 What about just adding in later techs and force these buildings to be available later because someone else did mention AIs being crippled by these buildings. If I recall correctly, the AI can not really predict that the buildings will be cheaper at future date.

#3 :shrug: OK. I will agree to disagree here .

Is there a way to make them less appealing to the AI? Because I have built say the Dog Breeder early on and even though it takes a while to make once I build it it seems to give me a great advantage. Do do not see why the AI would not get an advantage from it as well.

Yeah that was me and becauase I play eternity exclusively, and I edit (Afforess already gave me a jib about this, but what are you going to do ) the ibuild from 500 to 900% the cost of the dog breader was very noticable, and does cause the ai problems. Yes the ai does get a big boast if it builds it early (just like a human player), but there is no way this biulding should be one of the first things that you build (which is what the ai was doing). So, my solution was to bring it in with pottery (other then for balacing, no real connection with pottery-perhaps somone can give me a more suitable tech), which I can now say, made a MAJOR difference to the ai. They still were building them, but not at the expense of their early expansion, so all in all, a perfect result. The only other thing that bothers me about the dog breeder is its cost, compared to wonders. The are two points to examine here.

1. Does the building itself balance, in term of cost/going obsolete/availbility etc, which I would say yes (with the small changes mentioned above.

2. It is a building, not a wonder, and is basically avalible at the same time as stone henge, yet has a cost of (this is from memory) 200 vs 120, respectively. So, in essence, from this point of view it is not balaced. Wonders should be special, not just another 'building' and to have an additional building that is alsmost twice as expensive just 'feels' wrong somhow (imho). To balance this, I think that perhaps a much later introduction tech should be used, somwhere in the classical era seems right. Anyway, just some thoughts.

 

[Hydromancerx]

It too bad it cannot get more expensive as time goes on when more of its effects come into play. Because you have to look at it from the other direction. Since it doesn't goe obsolete until the trans-human age if it were really cheap by then it would take nothing to research.

Spoiler :

But lets break it down ...

Dog Breeder
Cost: 200
Happiness: +1 (Pets)
Production: +1 (Work Dogs)
Health: +1 (Removing Vermin)
Culture: +1 (Show Dogs)
Espionage: +1 (Guard Dogs)

Requires: Hunting

Obsolete: Artificial Evolution

Special Abilities

• +1 Production with Sheep (Sheep Dogs)
• +1 Production with Cows (Cattle Dogs)
• +1 Food with Deer (Hunting Dogs)
• +1 Gold (Sled Dogs)
• +1 Health with Medicine (Seeing Eye Dog / Assistant Dog)
• +10% Production for Dog Units
• +1 Espionage after discovery of Marxism Tech. (Police Animal)
• +1 Gold with Motion Pictures (Animal Actor)

Cost - It seems this is the major complaint because it being so early. So would it make it too powerful if it was say 100 instead?

Tech Req - This part I am not budging on since I really want this to be a pre-Animal Husbandry to represent how long dogs have been with humans.

Obsolete Tech - Again dogs will be with humans for a long time to come so I do not want to change this.

Stats - Each stat was carefully picked out when planning this out. However I had an idea, what if the dog breeder was made into more than one building that all required a main "dog breeder" building? Here is my idea ...

-----

Hunting Dog Breeder (Req Hunting)
Cost: 50
Happiness: +1 (Pets)
Production: +1 (Work Dogs)
Food: +1 Food (Hunting Dog)
Gold: +1 Sled Dog

Obsolete: Artificial Evolution

Special Abilities

• +1 Food with Deer (Hunting Dogs)
• +1 Health with Medicine (Seeing Eye Dog / Assistant Dog)
  

-----

Herding Dog Breeder (Req Animal Husbandry)
Cost: 50
Happiness: +1 (Pets)
Production: +1 (Work Dogs)

Req Resource: Cow OR Sheep

Obsolete: Artificial Evolution

Special Abilities

• +1 Production with Sheep (Sheep Dogs)
• +1 Production with Cows (Cattle Dogs)

-----

Guard Dog Breeder(Req Military Training)
Cost: 50
Happiness: +1 (Pets)
Espionage: +1 (Guard Dog)

Obsolete: Artificial Evolution

Special Abilities

• +10% Production for Dog Units
• +1 Espionage with Marxism Tech. (Police Animal)

-----

Toy Dog Breeder(Req Biology)
Cost: 50
Happiness: +1 (Pets)
Culture: +1 (Show Dogs)

Obsolete: Artificial Evolution

Special Abilities

• +1 Gold with Motion Pictures (Animal Actor)

-----

As you can see its probably not worth splitting them up into 4 buildings or even 2 buildings.

All I can say is just make it half the cost.

 

[Alorente]

Dark Ages: I like the concept. Not sure about the implementation. It is too much in your face all the time almost taking over the game. It feels like a random event more than something you can exert some control over. It tends to happen to all Civs at the same time so why have it in the first place. If the only defense against it is to start a Golden Age, the Golden Ages must be fixed. You can only start the first two. You can't initiate the third no matter how many GP you have available. I have mentioned this several times before. Because of Dark Ages, fixing this is now critical.

 

[zoommooz]

It too bad it cannot get more expensive as time goes on when more of its effects come into play. Because you have to look at it from the other direction. Since it doesn't goe obsolete until the trans-human age if it were really cheap by then it would take nothing to research.

Spoiler :

But lets break it down ...



Cost - It seems this is the major complaint because it being so early. So would it make it too powerful if it was say 100 instead?

Tech Req - This part I am not budging on since I really want this to be a pre-Animal Husbandry to represent how long dogs have been with humans.

Obsolete Tech - Again dogs will be with humans for a long time to come so I do not want to change this.

Stats - Each stat was carefully picked out when planning this out. However I had an idea, what if the dog breeder was made into more than one building that all required a main "dog breeder" building? Here is my idea ...

-----

Hunting Dog Breeder (Req Hunting)
Cost: 50
Happiness: +1 (Pets)
Production: +1 (Work Dogs)
Food: +1 Food (Hunting Dog)
Gold: +1 Sled Dog

Obsolete: Artificial Evolution

Special Abilities

• +1 Food with Deer (Hunting Dogs)
• +1 Health with Medicine (Seeing Eye Dog / Assistant Dog)
  

-----

Herding Dog Breeder (Req Animal Husbandry)
Cost: 50
Happiness: +1 (Pets)
Production: +1 (Work Dogs)

Req Resource: Cow OR Sheep

Obsolete: Artificial Evolution

Special Abilities

• +1 Production with Sheep (Sheep Dogs)
• +1 Production with Cows (Cattle Dogs)

-----

Guard Dog Breeder(Req Military Training)
Cost: 50
Happiness: +1 (Pets)
Espionage: +1 (Guard Dog)

Obsolete: Artificial Evolution

Special Abilities

• +10% Production for Dog Units
• +1 Espionage with Marxism Tech. (Police Animal)

-----

Toy Dog Breeder(Req Biology)
Cost: 50
Happiness: +1 (Pets)
Culture: +1 (Show Dogs)

Obsolete: Artificial Evolution

Special Abilities

• +1 Gold with Motion Pictures (Animal Actor)

-----

As you can see its probably not worth splitting them up into 4 buildings or even 2 buildings.

All I can say is just make it half the cost.

Yeak, I see what you mean, so I did make it half the cost, but due to balacing, I think that an earlier obsolete tech is also required. Unfortunately this problably means adjusting the tech that the benifit come in, as well. But balacing, disccussing is all part of the fun and these great building are definately worth the effort.

 

[Arakhor]

I'm now concluding my Marathon Earth 28 game, which is a 2450-turn game. I can't imagine why anyone would want to play a 4,500-turn game. I guess that a game that lasts for weeks just doesn't appeal to me.

 

[zoommooz]

I'm now concluding my Marathon Earth 28 game, which is a 2450-turn game. I can't imagine why anyone would want to play a 4,500-turn game. I guess that a game that lasts for weeks just doesn't appeal to me.

Which ROM/AND are you using. Just curious. And I love the 4500 turn games. Just different people I guess

 

[Munger]

Any chance of an interim beta10 before AND 1.60 next week? I'm using up my holiday allowance the rest of this week so would be good to start a new game on a longer than normal game speed and keep playing till some ridiculous time each morning.

 

[Arakhor]

I'm still using AND 1.55 for my Earth 28 game, though I'm going to finishing that very soon and playing with 1.6 when it comes out.

 

[Nordfeldt]

I think the resource depletion needs a little tweaking. I have had three mines depleted in 10 turns. Don't know if it is random, but at this rate I will have nothing when I reach the renaissance.

Also, I'm with Alorente on the Dark Ages. They are a bit too much, it is almost impossible to avoid them, they loop often and the AI can't handle them. But I realize the feature is at an early beta stage

 

[CivTbone]

Okay this is weird. Ya know the problem I've been having with the beta8 and 9 installer. It apparently installs in about 2 seconds flat, then gives me an error (see my previous postings).

Anyhow, just this morning I was gonna test out a change I made to a ren. company I'm working on, and accidentally clicked on the icon leading to the RoM beta9 install instead of the usual testing RoM. The game ran fine, and everything is in there, options, building, etc?!? WTH?

I'm gonna take a closer look at this tonite. It's off to work I go.

 

[Schwarzbart]

Because I am unable to continue my 1.55 game I whanted to download the Beta today but Google Docs brings the Error that the File is to big to be scanned and sadly the link to Download Anyway just brings me back to the same page.

 

[Alorente]

I think the resource depletion needs a little tweaking. I have had three mines depleted in 10 turns. Don't know if it is random, but at this rate I will have nothing when I reach the renaissance.

Also, I'm with Alorente on the Dark Ages. They are a bit too much, it is almost impossible to avoid them, they loop often and the AI can't handle them. But I realize the feature is at an early beta stage

I would not include Dark Ages in the official 1.6 release. Many people who don't care about beta testing will install 1.6 and will get frustrated with Dark Ages and walk away from the mod altogether when the other 99% is excellent. If it improves with additional testing, it should be included in the next release (1.7?).

The mine depletion happens a bit too often but I'm not against the concept. You can always build something else in its place. The problem is, like what happened to me today, I had only one Iron and the resource depleted after 30 turns. I was forced into a war to look for Iron as a last resort. In a case like that, with Iron, Copper, Sulphur, Uranium, it's too severe. I guess the only solution to avoid this situation would be to not work the mine until you actually need the resource. I am not sure if it depletes anyway if you don't work it.

 

[Nordfeldt]

It will only deplete if you work it. I just changed the depletion rates to my preferences myself I like the idea of running out of resources as well, I just think it should happen in late periods only. Perhaps remove the feature from normal mines and tone it down for shaft mines? So it would begin in earnest with modern mines.

@Afforess: Is there a way I can enable wonder movies without beginning a new game? Thanks.

 

[kaltruhe]

First of all, thanks for your effort Afforess! Beta9 is very stable and I've not found any bugs so far and have enjoyed new dark age modmod. It makes my game more exciting.
However, I got a problem with that. The next dark age begins in just a few turns after the previous dark age. and therefore top 3 civs are always in dark age. may need to fix it up.

 

[strategyonly]

I dont know who does the siege weapons, but when they come up as a rebel for your side, they FREEZE inplace, you cant move them?

Also is it normal for the Worlds Fair to come in your city and move out the same day? Kind of weird?

 

[Afforess]

Dark Ages: I like the concept. Not sure about the implementation. It is too much in your face all the time almost taking over the game. It feels like a random event more than something you can exert some control over. It tends to happen to all Civs at the same time so why have it in the first place. If the only defense against it is to start a Golden Age, the Golden Ages must be fixed. You can only start the first two. You can't initiate the third no matter how many GP you have available. I have mentioned this several times before. Because of Dark Ages, fixing this is now critical.

Golden Ages are working perfectly. I just gave myself 10 of each GP and I could set off 7 golden ages, no problem.

Any chance of an interim beta10 before AND 1.60 next week? I'm using up my holiday allowance the rest of this week so would be good to start a new game on a longer than normal game speed and keep playing till some ridiculous time each morning.

So far, Beta10 is exactly the same as Beta9, just with fixed wonder movies.

I think the resource depletion needs a little tweaking. I have had three mines depleted in 10 turns. Don't know if it is random, but at this rate I will have nothing when I reach the renaissance.

Also, I'm with Alorente on the Dark Ages. They are a bit too much, it is almost impossible to avoid them, they loop often and the AI can't handle them. But I realize the feature is at an early beta stage

First of all, thanks for your effort Afforess! Beta9 is very stable and I've not found any bugs so far and have enjoyed new dark age modmod. It makes my game more exciting.
However, I got a problem with that. The next dark age begins in just a few turns after the previous dark age. and therefore top 3 civs are always in dark age. may need to fix it up.

I would not include Dark Ages in the official 1.6 release. Many people who don't care about beta testing will install 1.6 and will get frustrated with Dark Ages and walk away from the mod altogether when the other 99% is excellent. If it improves with additional testing, it should be included in the next release (1.7?).

The mine depletion happens a bit too often but I'm not against the concept. You can always build something else in its place. The problem is, like what happened to me today, I had only one Iron and the resource depleted after 30 turns. I was forced into a war to look for Iron as a last resort. In a case like that, with Iron, Copper, Sulphur, Uranium, it's too severe. I guess the only solution to avoid this situation would be to not work the mine until you actually need the resource. I am not sure if it depletes anyway if you don't work it.

It will only deplete if you work it. I just changed the depletion rates to my preferences myself I like the idea of running out of resources as well, I just think it should happen in late periods only. Perhaps remove the feature from normal mines and tone it down for shaft mines? So it would begin in earnest with modern mines.

@Afforess: Is there a way I can enable wonder movies without beginning a new game? Thanks.

I'm giving serious thought to pulling Dark Ages from the release, and further refining it.

As for depletion, I'm still adjusting the time, it will be less likely in the release.

Because I am unable to continue my 1.55 game I whanted to download the Beta today but Google Docs brings the Error that the File is to big to be scanned and sadly the link to Download Anyway just brings me back to the same page.

Should work, I just tested it again.

 

[Arakhor]

In those screenshots, "Defensive Trebuchet" should only be spelt with one F.

 

[konradcabral]

I'm giving serious thought to pulling Dark Ages from the release, and further refining it.

Please don't. I didn't played with it yet, and I plan to start my next game in them 1.60 version. Just let it out of the recommended ones.

 

[radiobeaver]

Please don't. I didn't played with it yet, and I plan to start my next game in them 1.60 version. Just let it out of the recommended ones.

you will go nuts with dark ages... believe me.

Dark ages should be only possible 2-3 times max for a civ during the whole game. And they need to be triggered by some events, maybe a lost war or starvation or everybody hates you... also revolutions and oversized empires could do this job but
dark ages right now are totally unfair and stay forever if you once had a golden age or researched fundamentalism.

don´t get me wrong it´s a great idea but it needs much improvement.

 

[Afforess]

I dont know who does the siege weapons, but when they come up as a rebel for your side, they FREEZE inplace, you cant move them?

Also is it normal for the Worlds Fair to come in your city and move out the same day? Kind of weird?

Those aren't standard units, they are from Aaranda, I believe, and can't move.

Please don't. I didn't played with it yet, and I plan to start my next game in them 1.60 version. Just let it out of the recommended ones.

I won't literally be removing them; I'm just going to set the game option default to off and then make the game option invisible. Anyone who understands XML can turn it back on, if they really want to.

I've got some ideas for Dark Ages. They will make a return in 1.70.