A Not So Modest Proposal Regarding Buildings, Resources and Units

[Dancing Hoskuld]

If you have dye, why would you need lead?

There is precedent for it, though; the Madrassa has been made Islamic and the Brahmin Library Hindu. Same thing for King Richard's Crusade and Holy See Library for Christianity (though I think a "Saladin's Jihad" or equivalent building would go well for Islam).

This is a special case, so I feel obliged to link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cylinder_of_Cyrus

I know some animistic Oriental faiths have oracles, but are any of them truly as prominent in their own traditions as the Hellenstic one? As for it's distance, that would apply to the Shaolin Temple and the Satellites as well; not all buildings are literally in the city limits, whatever those are for what could be a nomadic tribe of 50 people or a metropolis with tens of millions.

This is pretty similar to the Oracle; I've heard of Asiatic cultural festivals and drama traditions, but not in a particular religious vein. If there's evidence for this, I'll take a closer look at it and consider dropping the Hellenism requirement

Printer's Workshop - wood or lead is what is used to make the print block/face that you use to make the print. The dye is put on the block and printed on to the fabric or paper.

The Apostolic Palace starts world wide votes - oh wait you agreed with me n that one.

Cylinder of Cyrus is already in C2C.

There were thousands of oracles. The one at Delphi was just one most were hard to get to and did not have nice beaches near by for archaeologists and movie makers to rediscover them.

 

[Hydromancerx]

There were thousands of oracles. The one at Delphi was just one most were hard to get to and did not have nice beaches near by for archaeologists and movie makers to rediscover them.

But only one gives you a free Tech.

 

[Praetyre]

Printer's Workshop - wood or lead is what is used to make the print block/face that you use to make the print. The dye is put on the block and printed on to the fabric or paper.

Alright, that seems reasonable enough. Tis in.

The Apostolic Palace starts world wide votes - oh wait you agreed with me n that one.

Cylinder of Cyrus is already in C2C.

Looks like we both made a blunder . Must have forgotten about it amidst all those Cultures.

What about having HRD require Constitution or Liberalism instead? The actual UNDOHR would fit a lot better with Mass Media, as you noted by suggesting it might require the UN.

There were thousands of oracles. The one at Delphi was just one most were hard to get to and did not have nice beaches near by for archaeologists and movie makers to rediscover them.

Well, there are thousands (if not tens of thousands) of skyscrapers in America today, but that doesn't make the Empire State Building or the former World Trade Centre any less notable.

 

[Praetyre]

Just a quick heads up; I've made some fairly significant revisions in the plan to the aircraft related buildings and units, including two new buildings for DH's perusal. Upon closer inspection, I firmly believe that the tech requirements, and only the tech requirements of the Airfield and Airport buildings should be swapped. This is not noted in my plan; I think it would be a good move for the core, and one that can be easily implemented independently of my plans.

The Airfield has no changes under my plan, but you might want to take a second look at the Airport, Hydro. It now requires Concrete AND Aircraft OR Modern Aircraft, two new resources that will play a significant role in my redesigning of the units.

 

[Hydromancerx]

The Airfield has no changes under my plan, but you might want to take a second look at the Airport, Hydro. It now requires Concrete AND Aircraft OR Modern Aircraft, two new resources that will play a significant role in my redesigning of the units.

I think Aluminum and Titanium should be alternate resources to steel. Something like ..

Aircraft Factory
Parts AND Tires AND (Aluminum OR Steel OR Titanium)

Though parts already have the requirement of (Aluminum OR Steel OR Titanium) so really all you would need are parts. So like ...

Aircraft Factory
Parts AND Tires

I am also thinking that since all factories also require a Factory that we could just make the factory require say things like furniture or whatever. Also I do not think that Oil should be needed. Only the aircrafts themselves would need Oil Products.

 

[Praetyre]

You make an excellent point regarding the constituent materials in Parts, as well as having Furniture for Factory and requiring Oil Products for planes proper rather than the simple aircraft resources (they would be fuelled at base, of course). To the plan it goes!

 

[Vokarya]

I've had a chance to look this over, and here are my thoughts:

I would stay really far away from requiring a specific Cathedral for any Wonder that we haven't already established is religion-specific. (like you have done for Hagia Sophia, Notre Dame, Oracle, Spiral Minaret). I personally feel that Civilization is very much a game of "what-ifs". What if J. S. Bach had been Taoist? I can see where you're going, but I think you're trying to hew too closely to history here.

I would not require the Apostolic Palace for other Wonders. The problem with that, from a gameplay perspective, is that if you're the only one to get the prerequisite Wonder, you have completely locked everyone else out of the secondary Wonders. I don't mind it with Valley of the Kings, because that's a reward for pulling off combining Pyramids + Sphinx. The competition for early Wonders is fierce, so building both is okay to have a reward.

Also, why only Free Church for the Apostolic Palace? I would do State Church OR Free Church OR Intolerant. An Intolerant Apostolic Palace leads crusades against the heathens; a State Church Apostolic Palace is a religious arm of your government.

Did you consider extending the Palace Garden and Throne Room to the other Palace-class buildings (like Versailles)?

 

[Praetyre]

I've had a chance to look this over, and here are my thoughts:

I would stay really far away from requiring a specific Cathedral for any Wonder that we haven't already established is religion-specific. (like you have done for Hagia Sophia, Notre Dame, Oracle, Spiral Minaret). I personally feel that Civilization is very much a game of "what-ifs". What if J. S. Bach had been Taoist? I can see where you're going, but I think you're trying to hew too closely to history here.

What about simply requiring a State Cathedral building of any sort for these wonders like the Apostolic Palace, then? That keeps the religious angle while allowing for such possibilities. I will note that the Spiral Minaret is actually adjacent to an Islamic Mosque, though.

I would not require the Apostolic Palace for other Wonders. The problem with that, from a gameplay perspective, is that if you're the only one to get the prerequisite Wonder, you have completely locked everyone else out of the secondary Wonders. I don't mind it with Valley of the Kings, because that's a reward for pulling off combining Pyramids + Sphinx. The competition for early Wonders is fierce, so building both is okay to have a reward.

There are really only two other wonders branching off it, though, and there are plenty of similar alternatives for the Holy See Library and Sistine Chapel.

Also, why only Free Church for the Apostolic Palace? I would do State Church OR Free Church OR Intolerant. An Intolerant Apostolic Palace leads crusades against the heathens; a State Church Apostolic Palace is a religious arm of your government.

You make a fair point; I guess the big bonus with Free Church is a good enough representation while allowing for said possibilities.

Did you consider extending the Palace Garden and Throne Room to the other Palace-class buildings (like Versailles)?

At the time I wrote those requirements, I had Versaille as part of the Palace-extension line. I may perform such a rewrite in future.

 

[Vokarya]

What about simply requiring a State Cathedral building of any sort for these wonders like the Apostolic Palace, then? That keeps the religious angle while allowing for such possibilities.

I could see having any Cathedral, although for Oracle, I'd make it just a Temple, not a Cathedral. The Cathedral and Pantheon don't show up until after the Oracle becomes available.

There are really only two other wonders branching off it, though, and there are plenty of similar alternatives for the Holy See Library and Sistine Chapel.

Holy See Library, maybe; but not Sistine Chapel. I wouldn't link them. Sistine Chapel is more of an artistic wonder than a religious one. The Chapel doesn't have to be done for the Pope, but I'm starting to agree that only something as big as the Apostolic Palace could accumulate enough information for the Holy See Library. I think the name is bad; "Vatican Archives" would work better.

You make a fair point; I guess the big bonus with Free Church is a good enough representation while allowing for said possibilities.

OK. I agree that Prophets and Divine Cult don't have the sophistication for creating something as big as the Apostolic Palace.

At the time I wrote those requirements, I had Versaille as part of the Palace-extension line. I may perform such a rewrite in future.

My thought was to extend every building that requires Palace (Ballroom, Palace Gardens, Throne Room, etc.) to work with all of the national wonders/world wonders that count as a center of government (Abu Simbel, Versailles, Forbidden Palace, etc.)

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

More comments.

Wonders

Sydney Opera House - I think this should be on one of the art techs but only because they are empty at the moment.

Projects

Where you are linking to other projects or wonders are you suggesting that they must be in the same city? If so that can cause problems when people hit the limit on projects et al.

Units

Adventurer should just require stable to cater for the alt-timeline stuff where a nation may not have horses but does have zebras for example.

Barrage Balloon - why furniture and glassware? they are just balloon on a string meant to stop bombers flying low enough for accurate bombing strikes.

Constructor Ship - this is future tech with no humans on board so no need for furniture.

(BtW one of my ideas was to have all the animal warfare techs require a stable before they could be studied.)

Flamethrower - we really need to get some classical era ones of these. They were more used for demoralisation and were likely to explode just like the modern ones.

Stone Thrower - should not require stone. The resource is building quality not throwing quality.

Work boat - requiring a shipwright for this means that you can't harvest fish etc until many many techs after the tech that lets you. Do we need an early work boat which is a dugout or similar.

 

[Praetyre]

Sydney Opera House - I think this should be on one of the art techs but only because they are empty at the moment.

The SOP is definitely post-Globalization, and there's no art techs past that point that I can see. Earliest one before that is Pop Art, and I'm definitely having a hard time seeing pulp fiction and the SOP as contemporaneous.

Where you are linking to other projects or wonders are you suggesting that they must be in the same city? If so that can cause problems when people hit the limit on projects et al.

That's a good point; would it be possible to set it (using that expanded property system, maybe?) so that requiring a Wonder requires it to be in the same city if Unlimited Wonders is checked and in the same civ if it isn't checked? Just a thought.

Adventurer should just require stable to cater for the alt-timeline stuff where a nation may not have horses but does have zebras for example.

Sounds like a plan; I was wondering whether it could be made non-animal specific, but went with keeping authorial intent in mind.

Barrage Balloon - why furniture and glassware? they are just balloon on a string meant to stop bombers flying low enough for accurate bombing strikes.

The graphics and the existing requirements seem to imply it's a zeppelin-bomber, while the text goes for hot-air balloon. Should it get a new graphic and the same requirements as the hot-air units?

Constructor Ship - this is future tech with no humans on board so no need for furniture.

Recent revisions have eliminated Furniture for ships anyway, so no worries.

Flamethrower - we really need to get some classical era ones of these. They were more used for demoralisation and were likely to explode just like the modern ones.

So an Ancient/Classical-era Grenadier, essentially? First thing that popped into my head were those bomb-throwing mystic men from 300, but I'll be damn surprised if that's historically accurate.

Stone Thrower - should not require stone. The resource is building quality not throwing quality.

Alright, out it goes.

Work boat - requiring a shipwright for this means that you can't harvest fish etc until many many techs after the tech that lets you. Do we need an early work boat which is a dugout or similar.

No need for that, given watercraft are a Neolithic invention. We could just have it require Fisherman Hut OR Spear Fishermen's Hut OR Shipwright.

 

[Hydromancerx]

The graphics and the existing requirements seem to imply it's a zeppelin-bomber, while the text goes for hot-air balloon. Should it get a new graphic and the same requirements as the hot-air units?

You cannot rely upon the graphics since we are very limited in what graphics we get to use. The names and what they stand for are important. This is a Barrage Balloon ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrage_balloon

 

[Praetyre]

You cannot rely upon the graphics since we are very limited in what graphics we get to use. The names and what they stand for are important. This is a Barrage Balloon ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrage_balloon

There is a different graphic for the Hot Air Balloon, but that image would actually appear to support my contention that it's a form of zeppelin.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Barrage Balloon are sort of like big inflatable balloons rigged to explode like a mine. They were made to look like real zeppelins. Thus they are more ore less mimics and traps for unsuspecting aircraft.

On another tangent it would be funny if the same technique was used today with bouncy castles. lol

"No kid don't go into the bouncy castle! Its a TRAP!"

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

So an Ancient/Classical-era Grenadier, essentially? First thing that popped into my head were those bomb-throwing mystic men from 300, but I'll be damn surprised if that's historically accurate.

No. I don't know if you are old enough to remember those hand pump fly sprays. Basically hand pump air over a small tube connected to a can of fly spray. Now replace the hand pump with a bronze one with a dragon mouth and a tube down to a bucket of oil. I am fairly sure the Romans used them in the Judean campaigns.

 

[Praetyre]

Alright then, I've fixed the requirements. Based on this mechanic, though, wouldn't it make more sense to have them as suicide units, perhaps part of the upcoming line you are designing? My mental image was of a bomb-dropping zeppelin, for the record.

EDIT: Well, I have heard of some kind of weird Medieval-era weapon called "Greek fire", though in a C2C context that would be much better suited as a Byzantine unique naval unit (Cataphracts are actually a fairly common feature in most Classical/Medieval era Middle Eastern armies).

 

[Hydromancerx]

EDIT: Well, I have heard of some kind of weird Medieval-era weapon called "Greek fire", though in a C2C context that would be much better suited as a Byzantine unique naval unit (Cataphracts are actually a fairly common feature in most Classical/Medieval era Middle Eastern armies).

I proposed a Greek Fire unit long ago for RoM/AND but the consensus was people did not want it because its already a random event promotion. If people want it then I have a unit set up we can make.

Byzantine Greek Flamethrower
http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=15680

 

[ls612]

I proposed a Greek Fire unit long ago for RoM/AND but the consensus was people did not want it because its already a random event promotion. If people want it then I have a unit set up we can make.

Byzantine Greek Flamethrower
http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=15680

I was thinking more of a ship that shoots Greek Fire, as opposed to a person, as that's how it was historically done. I don't know if graphics for such a wooden ship exist though. This ship would replace the Cataphtact as the Byzantine Cultute Unit. I could make an inquiry in the Unit Graphics section if there is interest.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I was thinking more of a ship that shoots Greek Fire, as opposed to a person, as that's how it was historically done. I don't know if graphics for such a wooden ship exist though. This ship would replace the Cataphtact as the Byzantine Cultute Unit. I could make an inquiry in the Unit Graphics section if there is interest.

Well the Greek Fire event gives all wooden ships a free promotion (I forget which promotion).

However if we want some more kids of new ships I have some ideas ...

- Fire Ship (A ship that explodes upon attacking another ship)
- Korean Turtle Ship
- War Raft (a pre-Siege Quinquerme that comes at the same era as war canoes and can bombard cities).

As for the Cataphtact being replaced I think it should stay but have such a Greek fire ship get put in the Ancient Golden Age alternative timeline tech stuff. Same could go for the Ancient Flamethrower unit.

However we need a better name for the alternative timeline tech.

 

[ls612]

As for the Cataphtact being replaced I think it should stay but have such a Greek fire ship get put in the Ancient Golden Age alternative timeline tech stuff. Same could go for the Ancient Flamethrower unit.

However we need a better name for the alternative timeline tech.

It isn't Alt-Timeline though, the Byzantines actually used these en masse, as did the Saljuks later. A Greek fire ship would be much more Unique than another horseman.