A Not So Modest Proposal Regarding Buildings, Resources and Units

[Taxman66]

Would it be at all possible to make some of the buildings a little easier to build. The requirements for the Falconry building require an awful lot of animals and you have to have just the right resources in the city limits. Could we at least have the option to use a flock of ducks ( or other birds which does provides poultry, btw) instead of actually having to have a poultry resource inside the city limits along with the other resource requirement (grapes, iirc?).

 

[Praetyre]

All you need for a Falconer is Grapes AND Poultry, and my plan doesn't alter it at all, not sure what the issue is.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Grapes??? Why does a Falconer need grapes? That's a rather strange preq imho. And the old way worked just fine too.

JosEPh

 

[Taxman66]

Poultry is fine, as something the falcons hunt. By why can't you use the poultry provided by a flock instead of having to have the resource in the city radius? I mean isn't the whole purpose of converting animals into flocks/herds there to supplement the access to the resource?

Though, I admit I don't really understand the grapes either.

 

[Praetyre]

Grapes, AFAIK, are part of a particular resource combo system devised before AIAndy found a way to crack the resource limit. In any case, this is a discussion better suited to Ideas and Suggestions; my building plan doesn't touch the Falconer or touch in any significant way on issues of the terrain resource combo system.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Poultry is fine, as something the falcons hunt. By why can't you use the poultry provided by a flock instead of having to have the resource in the city radius? I mean isn't the whole purpose of converting animals into flocks/herds there to supplement the access to the resource?

Though, I admit I don't really understand the grapes either.

They are two different lines of buildings. One line is about subdued animals the other was about culture but not Culture. It is possible to add an animal to build almost any building but it would still need the other requirements. So I could make the Falconer buildable by a hawk or eagle but you would still need poultry and grapes in the vicinity. There is no way to have "poultry in the vicinity OR poultry flock" and grapes in the vicinity. It would be possible to have it require any poultry building and grapes in the vicinity.

In actual fact I think Hydro and I were looking at allowing either a Hawking Hut or a Falconer but not both since they were intended as almost the same building.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Also the culture is not so much about the resource as a unique combination of resources to trigger a culture. In general the resource picked represent resources found in that culture or region. While others are just there because I ran out of resources to pick from for that home region. This is why sometimes the resource get changed when another culture comes along. For instance Roman culture has Olives but could be Marble or Wine or Iron could work just as well. That's why DH's Herd buildings are not used because you could send say a Horse to any city, while a horse resource has a limited area to be generated in (or triggered by events). By the time you can use Great Farmers to place resources there are less cultures to get.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Praetyre

1. Tweaked Dairy Barn, Dining Hall, Donkey Mill and Druglord's Mansion.

2. The Design Studio is in the core so you will need to change it.

3. The Drydock is in the core. Please chnage the Cement AND Steel requirements but don't add the Garrison requirement.

4. You can move on to "E" now.

 

[Praetyre]

I've since discovered that the Offices requirement is already covered by the Design Studio requiring Computer Network, so that's been skipped. Done the Drydock (sans Garrison), tis now in the SVN.

Since E is even shorter than D, I'm going to list F in spoiler brackets for future perusal;
E-Bank: Requires Computer Network
Engineering School: Requires University
Expressway: No Civic Requirement

Spoiler :

Factory: Requires Bricks AND Chemicals OR Rubber. The latter two are for the assembly line, of course.
Farmscraper I: Requires Chemicals AND Concrete AND Glassware AND Steel. Steel is for the superstructure, chemicals for the plastics and plants, glassware for the greenhouses and concrete for the flooring and foundation.
Fencing Academy: Requires Iron Equipment AND Barracks OR Garrison. Willing to hold till units.
Field Hospital: Requires Barracks OR Garrison. Not sure about this one myself; are there any instances of military hospitals located in cities with no other permanent military presence?
Fire Brigade: Requires Bricks.
Fire Dock: Requires Concrete AND Steel.
Fire Station: Requires Automobiles AND Bricks AND Biofuels OR Oil Products.
Fish Pens: Requires Nets
Fish Traps: Requires Baskets OR Nets
Food Processing Plant: Requires Factory AND Modern Granary
Forge: Requires Bricks AND Charcoal OR Coal, requires Copper Mine OR Iron Mine OR Lead Mine OR Tin Mine
Fortified Outpost: Requires Bamboo OR Bricks OR Lumber
Foundation: Requires Offices
Foundry: Requires Bricks AND Charcoal OR Coal, requires Copper Mine OR Iron Mine OR Lead Mine OR Tin Mine
Free Port: Requires Port OR Commercial Port OR International Port
Frontier Outpost: Requires Bamboo OR Bricks OR Lumber
Furniture Factory: Requires Bamboo OR Chemicals OR Iron OR Lumber OR Obsidian OR Steel OR Stone, produces Furniture.
Furniture Workshop: Requires Bamboo OR Lumber OR Obsidian OR Stone.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Grapes??? Why does a Falconer need grapes? That's a rather strange preq imho. And the old way worked just fine too.

JosEPh

Originally we did not have a poultry resource. So the different bird buildings were linked to a different resource such as Chickens to Spices (sicne they orginate from southeast Asia) and Cormorants to Fish (since they are used to hunt fish). The falcon never really fit in a good resource so my logic was Wine (aka Grapes) was a drink for royalty and Falconry was a sport of royalty so they were loosely connected. Its also why it was linked to the Aristocracy tech before we had Falconry tech.

Once poultry came along I added that too however I did not want you to get all the bird buildings from poultry so I left the 2nd requirement. I hope that helps you understand my logic. In a perfect world we would have a "falcon" or "bird of prey" resource, but we don't.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Well that explains why many times I can't build Falconer, I didn't have a grape resource!

So the next question is: what is the frequency of grapes for any map? Especially Non Earth type maps. And since there are many buildings with this kind of dependency then every map and new game is a crap shoot on what you can or can't build because of resource dependencies.

I think info like this should be in the Strategy and Tips thread for new (and old) players. Might cut down on the number of ppl thinking there is a problem or bug in the system.

JosEPh

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Praetyre

1. E-Bank is in the core so you will need to change.

2. Engineering School comes much too early for the University, which is why I did not require it like my other educational buildings.

3. Sorry but the Expressway was made specifically for that Civic. Unless you can think of a replacement building for that civic I am going to leave it as it is.

4. Tweaked Factory, Farmscraper I, Fire Brigade, Fire Station, Fish Traps, Forge, Foundry and Furniture Factory.

5. Fish Pens are DH's so you will have to ask him.

6. Food Processing Plant is in the core so you will need to do it.

7. Foundation comes much too early for Offices. Do you have another idea?

8. Looks like the Free Port is in the Core. Please chnage.

9. Ok post "G".

 

[Nimek]

Power Lines - should require copper wires (i post that in another thread but Hydro didint notice it)

 

[Hydromancerx]

So the next question is: what is the frequency of grapes for any map? Especially Non Earth type maps. And since there are many buildings with this kind of dependency then every map and new game is a crap shoot on what you can or can't build because of resource dependencies.

Well I tend to find them in clusters on the maps I play. Not every culture had falcons either. I would say your more likely to subdue a Hawk than get a Falcon. However this is not new for these types of buildings. They are made so every city is different and not every city can build every type of building. I think that's on of the strengths of C2C is that you can play many games and never have the same available buildings, just because the map generated a different way each time.

This is why pre-made maps, while cool to play don't always give you other options because they just did not build the map for every possible unlocking building combo.

Power Lines - should require copper wires (i post that in another thread but Hydro didint notice it)

I did but we are only at "E" and "F". "P" is still a ways off.

Also thee is a slight problem. Copper Wires come at Telegraph, but Power Lines come at Electricity.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Well I tend to find them in clusters on the maps I play. Not every culture had falcons either. I would say your more likely to subdue a Hawk than get a Falcon. However this is not new for these types of buildings. They are made so every city is different and not every city can build every type of building. I think that's on of the strengths of C2C is that you can play many games and never have the same available buildings, just because the map generated a different way each time.

This is why pre-made maps, while cool to play don't always give you other options because they just did not build the map for every possible unlocking building combo.

Which probably means I should get rid of the Hawking Hut. Or you could make the Falconer require Winery (requires grapes in vicinity) and(or?) Hawking Hut.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Which probably means I should get rid of the Hawking Hut. Or you could make the Falconer require Winery (requires grapes in vicinity) and(or?) Hawking Hut.

No, no, Its fine he way it is. Other buildings work this way too such as you can subdue an elephant or get an elephant resource in the city vicinity. Hunting animals should reward you since you are actively hunting them while the one in the vicinity are there by chance. They balance each other out in both luck and action (which still takes some luck to subdue). Likewise later on when you get the Great Farmer you can actually place the resources around the city to make it. So that also evens out too. because by the time you can build Great Farmers there are not so many animals to subdue anymore.

 

[Praetyre]

@Praetyre

1. E-Bank is in the core so you will need to change.

Done.

2. Engineering School comes much too early for the University, which is why I did not require it like my other educational buildings.

How about having it under Trading Post, then? Or having it require Bricks AND Books OR Paper OR Tablets OR Scrolls.

3. Sorry but the Expressway was made specifically for that Civic. Unless you can think of a replacement building for that civic I am going to leave it as it is.

I'll leave it be, then.

5. Fish Pens are DH's so you will have to ask him.

I'll put it on the religious backburner, then.

6. Food Processing Plant is in the core so you will need to do it.

Done.

7. Foundation comes much too early for Offices. Do you have another idea?

The old Trading Post OR Offices standby seems like it could work. Mansions are another intriguing OR possibility.

8. Looks like the Free Port is in the Core. Please chnage.

Done.

9. Ok post "G".

This is a trifecta, due to the scant length of the next three letters, with a sole J entry at the end.
Gallows: Requires Lumber AND Rope.
Garbage Collection Agency: Requires Automobiles AND Chemicals AND Oil Products OR Biofuels. Chemicals are for the plastic bags, of course.
Garrison: Requires Bricks AND Furniture
Granary: Requires Pottery AND Bricks OR Lumber
Greenhouse: Requires Concrete AND Glassware AND Steel.

Spoiler :

Homing Pigeon Coop: Requires Lumber
Hospital: Requires Furniture AND Bricks OR Concrete
Hotel: Requires Furniture AND Glassware AND Bricks OR Concrete.
Hydroponics Lab: Requires Laboratory.

Spoiler :

Ice Rink: Requires Chemicals AND Furniture AND Glassware AND Steel
Icehouse: Requires Granary
Insane Asylum: Requires Furniture AND Bricks OR Concrete
Interrogation Building: Requires Furniture AND Bricks OR Concrete
Ironsmith: Produces Iron Equipment

Spoiler :

Jail: Requires Furniture AND Bricks OR Concrete

 

[Thunderbrd]

Ironsmith: Produces Iron Equipment

What is Iron Equipment... a resource?

This might play in rather interesting with the equip promos...

 

[Nimek]

Yes i love the idea that we will have equipment resources connected with equipment promotions.
Thunderbird when we will see first version of your combat mod?

Do you give ma a pleasure to see my transhuman time equipment promos in that mod?

 

[Praetyre]

I'm willing to leave the equipment buildings till we get to units. Suffice to say that, yes, it is a new resource, and it represents Iron Age (i.e. Classical) weapons and armour and would be required to produce most non-irregular units of the time. Your promotion system is probably better, though, so we'll cross this bridge when we come to it.