A Petition to Merge NES-IOT

[filli_noctus]

Perhaps it would be worth adding links between the two forums, like the various S&T forums have links to NES. Doing so would be a minimally intrusive way to ease the connect in between the two and remind GMs that they can advertise for players in the other forum as the and threads are easy to overlook.

 

[spryllino]

Don't get me wrong, spryllino is nowhere near as vitriolic as Lucky, and I commend him for that. But he reiterates the same thinking that's so far been the crux of opposition to the merger: "We recognize that you can adapt, but we're convinced you won't, and don't want to give you the chance." I think it's pretty clear by now that at the pure, bare-bones, game-play level, NES and IOT are interchangeable, and what we're really arguing is a jingoist kultur kampf. And from the exchanges in this thread (not to mention my own dirty socialist outlook on life), this is why I think we need a merger: to foster a mutual understanding and long-term dialogue by which we may improve both communities. As the saying goes, you're much less likely to discriminate against blacks/gays/Jews/etc. when you know them personally and interact on a regular basis. Cross-pollination is OK, but if we really want to build bridges then we need to aim for immersion.

My question is: If the majority of NESers claim they won't play IOT but are happy to accept IOTers into NES, then how much further of a stretch is it really to host the games side-by-side? After all, if the cultures are supposedly so clearly identifiable, then surely we can let the players pick the one more suited to their play style?

I haven't got much to add on top of what carmen and Iggy have just said (and in particular I agree with every word of Iggy's post), other than that I'm a dirty lefty too, and I think it's completely unwarranted and unreasonable to compare my opinions about merging two forums to jingoism and semi-implicitly to racism.

Also, I'm still flummoxed by the outrageous logic that says, "The less we want to merge with you, the more we need a merger." I mean, I compared it rather anodynely to room sharing earlier, but seeing as you seem intent on using the most dramatic metaphors possible: apply that to international politics? to sex?

 

[Crezth]

I haven't got much to add on top of what carmen and Iggy have just said (and in particular I agree with every word of Iggy's post), other than that I'm a dirty lefty too, and I think it's completely unwarranted and unreasonable to compare my opinions about merging two forums to jingoism and semi-implicitly to racism.

That's not how it works, yo. Reds are just as capable of residential/nativist modes of thought.

Anyway, all of this hemming and hawing is just convenient wheedling to decency, and dancing around the central notion that IOTers are "lesser" than NESers. You have to commend Luckymoose because, on this point, he does not hide his true intentions. He is utterly forthcoming about the disdain he holds for IOTers.

 

[Double A]

Many IOTers seem to be disinterested in NESes, and vice versa, each for their own reasons. Thus, even though the NES forum is always happy to get new NESers, many IOTers just don't wish to join our games. Moving our forums together won't change the levels of interest. NESers interested in IOTs are already involved in IOTs, and vice versa. There's still not a compelling reason to host our respective games side by side.

Maybe we would be if a third of the player base didn't give the impression that they're the only ones allowed to have fun, and in the form of tribute from other, newer players. Of course, that's probably wrong for the most part (with the one glaring and obvious exception), but perceptions are rather important.

 

[Terrance888]

I'm always a welcoming, laid back character.

Until I start TerraNES2: Serious Business Bro, of course.

 

[spryllino]

That's not how it works, yo. Reds are just as capable of residential/nativist modes of thought.

I know. It's Thorvald who said that his side of the argument was to do with leftism.

Anyway, all of this hemming and hawing is just convenient wheedling to decency, and dancing around the central notion that IOTers are "lesser" than NESers. You have to commend Luckymoose because, on this point, he does not hide his true intentions. He is utterly forthcoming about the disdain he holds for IOTers.

More appalling logic: "Luckymoose is on the same side of the argument as spryllino, but is being much more extreme and rude. Since spryllino essentially agrees with Luckymoose in part, he must also agree with Luckymoose in the extreme and rude bits. Therefore Luckymoose's rudeness means that he is showing more integrity than spryllino. Therefore Luckymoose deserves commendation for being rude, and spryllino deserves censure for being polite." I mean, seriously?

 

[North King]

Also, I wish this didn't need to be reiterated, but neither I, nor to my knowledge, any of the prominent "anti-merger" people in this thread (with the exception of Luckymoose, and let's be honest there's a 95% chance he's trolling anyway) actually believe IOTers are "lesser" beings in any way. I think they are looking for a somewhat different experience from a forum game. Thinking someone wants something less realistic, more freeform, or more rules-oriented does not imply that I think they are stupid. I, myself, often play board games such as Settlers of Catan (as I am as I write this post), and I do not attempt to rationalize it by putting a "story" behind the various pieces on the board. I play it because it's fun -- in a different way from NESing, but no less intellectual.

Not that IOTs are as different from NESes as Settlers is, but this "NESers think IOTers have evolved a chin as a drool-guard" accusation really needs to be dropped.

 

[Joecoolyo]

Not that IOTs are as different from NESes as Settlers is, but this "NESers think IOTers have evolved a chin as a drool-guard" accusation really needs to be dropped.

You guys certainly give off that impression then.

I feel like I've been told I'm playing a game where I just hopelessly throw stats at people in a vain attempting at ultimate victory, instead of the story-based world-creation/diplomatic simulators that I play IOT for.

 

[Lord_Iggy]

That's not how it works, yo. Reds are just as capable of residential/nativist modes of thought.

Anyway, all of this hemming and hawing is just convenient wheedling to decency, and dancing around the central notion that IOTers are "lesser" than NESers. You have to commend Luckymoose because, on this point, he does not hide his true intentions. He is utterly forthcoming about the disdain he holds for IOTers.

Crezth, have I given the impression that I think that the IOTers as a whole are in any way lesser to the NESers? That is absolutely not my view, and it cheapens our debate to claim that the majority of NESers hold such opinions. There are no masked intentions here. I've got no agenda beyond what I've said.

Maybe we would be if a third of the player base didn't give the impression that they're the only ones allowed to have fun, and in the form of tribute from other, newer players. Of course, that's probably wrong for the most part (with the one glaring and obvious exception), but perceptions are rather important.

Could you clarify this?

I don't think that one third of the NES player base is the only one entitled to have fun, although I am not sure what you mean by 'fun'. Ideally, everyone, from the players of the greatest superpowers to the piddliest banana republics should be able to have fun in an NES setting. That's specifically because the fun isn't supposed to come from being the biggest, or being the strongest, or from pounding everyone else into submission. Certainly doing so can be fun, in certain situations, but there are so many more paths to enjoyment than just that.

If your point is that you can't have fun without being one of the top third of the nations in a game, then I have to disagree with your view. If you are trying to make another point, (such as 'one third of NESers believe that only they are allowed to have fun, and the other two thirds must supplicate the former by being shoved around'), then please elabourate on it, so that I can better understand where you're coming from.

 

[sophie]

I don't think that one third of the NES player base is the only one entitled to have fun, although I am not sure what you mean by 'fun'. Ideally, everyone, from the players of the greatest superpowers to the piddliest banana republics should be able to have fun in an NES setting. That's specifically because the fun isn't supposed to come from being the biggest, or being the strongest, or from pounding everyone else into submission. Certainly doing so can be fun, in certain situations, but there are so many more paths to enjoyment than just that.

Yeah this is a good point. I mean in PerfNES you basically spent the entire 3 (4?) turns doing nothing but building canals and exploring alchemic minutiae - not necessarily because it was going to improve the overall position of Frisia, but because your character was an eccentric more concerned with the arcane than geopolitics.

 

[Double A]

Could you clarify this?

I don't think that one third of the NES player base is the only one entitled to have fun, although I am not sure what you mean by 'fun'. Ideally, everyone, from the players of the greatest superpowers to the piddliest banana republics should be able to have fun in an NES setting. That's specifically because the fun isn't supposed to come from being the biggest, or being the strongest, or from pounding everyone else into submission. Certainly doing so can be fun, in certain situations, but there are so many more paths to enjoyment than just that.

If your point is that you can't have fun without being one of the top third of the nations in a game, then I have to disagree with your view. If you are trying to make another point, (such as 'one third of NESers believe that only they are allowed to have fun, and the other two thirds must supplicate the former by being shoved around'), then please elabourate on it, so that I can better understand where you're coming from.

Yeah, I wasn't referring to being powerful in-game is equal to having fun. That would've been pretty ridiculous. My point was it seems like some NESers just want people to RP for their enjoyment, not the writer's, and anyone just along for the ride should be thrown off.

 

[Terrance888]

I spent a couple years as small slutty states willing to sleep with every great power that wishes to enter my region, and it was glorious.

 

[Crezth]

More appalling logic: "Luckymoose is on the same side of the argument as spryllino, but is being much more extreme and rude. Since spryllino essentially agrees with Luckymoose in part, he must also agree with Luckymoose in the extreme and rude bits. Therefore Luckymoose's rudeness means that he is showing more integrity than spryllino. Therefore Luckymoose deserves commendation for being rude, and spryllino deserves censure for being polite." I mean, seriously?

I can just taste the indignation in this post. I love it.

You just have to spend a little while in #nes to get a good taste of how NESers regard IOTers. It's almost universally negative. I know there are "exceptions" but these don't have any bearing on the atmosphere of the debate. But then you come into this thread and we get elaborate explanations about how these negative feelings are grounded in fact or reason.

 

[North King]

You guys certainly give off that impression then.

I feel like I've been told I'm playing a game where I just hopelessly throw stats at people in a vain attempting at ultimate victory, instead of the story-based world-creation/diplomatic simulators that I play IOT for.

Well, in fairness, I feel like I've been told I'm a horrible person who basically believes all people who don't share my preferences for a forum game should be barred from playing, whose obsession for keeping the good positions in the hands of his friends has reached an almost neurotic level.

I also feel like the image of NESers has been rather damaged by the relative "loudness" of Luckymoose and Crezth in this thread.

I have no real opinions of IOTers as a group, because I haven't hung out with them enough, but my opposition for the forum merger -- as I thought I'd stated about twenty times in this thread alone -- is because I see no reason for it, and because I've yet to see a convincing demonstration of the similarity of the two systems.

 

[Lord_Iggy]

Well, I guess I can't truly speak for anyone but myself here, but I do believe that every nation has the potential to be enjoyable. Regarding Frisia, beyond roleplaying an increasingly-senile Prince who had an obsession with alchemy, his son was doing a lot to try and expand myself into a greater maritime trading nation. Anyway, my own actions as Frisia are sort of tangential to my point, which is that fun can be found in playing almost any nation, so long as one can adapt their playstyle to fit their nation's circumstances.

 

[Lord_Iggy]

Yeah, I wasn't referring to being powerful in-game is equal to having fun. That would've been pretty ridiculous. My point was it seems like some NESers just want people to RP for their enjoyment, not the writer's, and anyone just along for the ride should be thrown off.

Who is the writer, in this case? Given the medium in which we work, we're all writers.

The point of an NES, at any rate, is that multiple people are RPing, and the collaborative aspect of that roleplay increases the enjoyment for all involved. If someone doesn't enjoy the collaborative RPing aspect, then I could understand why they wouldn't enjoy NESing as it is.

 

[Gem Hound]

Personally, I think these calls for merger only push both sides into camps, breed animosity between the two, and make a merger even less likely each time. I am against a merger due to this. I would much rather have a community where people didn't squabble over merging forums. IOT is not dying. School started. NES stands a chance to die though, since the threads are far less active and would get buried by IOTs.

NESers and IOTers are both looking for different styles of games, and this by far is one of the only sites that have games like these that I know of. To combine them I think, would hurt the community, as instead of people glaring at each other from afar, there would be open war over a forum, and many people would probably get banned. That is just my views on these demands for merger.

 

[Thorvald of Lym]

I also feel like the image of NESers has been rather damaged by the relative "loudness" of Luckymoose and Crezth in this thread.

Ironically, I find Crezth's dissenting position to be an encouraging sign that NESers aren't the ivory-tower untouchables certain persons have made them out to be.

Who is the writer, in this case? Given the medium in which we work, we're all writers.

I think what Double A is saying is that IOT works on the premise that players are all equals, the game's universe is sewn together from the bits and pieces brought to the table, and that every player is afforded a certain degree of free reign over home affairs;^{state sovereignty lawl} assuming it's not empirically stupid, as long as player A's roleplay doesn't unduly interfere with player B's, both are held valid. NES advertises itself as ostensibly the same, but his challenge is that in practice a hierarchy develops wherein a) certain players' spheres are privileged over others, and/or b) whether a player "gets" NES has more to do with one's willingness to submit to this status quo than one's merits as a writer. Speaking from my own observations in SilliNES 2, a couple of mesoamerican civs had magitek and a couple of European states went proto-steampunk, and suddenly it's canon law that the continents on opposite sides of the Atlantic must inherently follow different rules on magic.

I read this a few hours ago and it left me with an uncomfortable feeling. I've now taken some time to ruminate, and have figured the source of that disease. You're drawing a parallel between the very serious issues of ethnic and religious discrimination and what is, at its very worst, cliquish behaviour between two recreational hobby groups. I don't at all appreciate the implication that the NES forum's views are comparable to racial discrimination. :/

You'll have to forgive my choice of illustration; as mentioned above and throughout the thread, given that Luckymoose is characterizing IOTers as mental retards, it's pretty easy to draw casual parallels to those levels of irrational hatred.

Some of my best friends are NESers!

It's Thorvald who said that his side of the argument was to do with leftism.

What I mean is, my view on life is you beat prejudice with education, and the best way to educate is to integrate.

Perhaps make IOT a subforum of NES? Or make both subforums of an overarching forum?

Citing this in case it got lost.

 

[North King]

Ironically, I find Crezth's dissenting position to be an encouraging sign that NESers aren't the ivory-tower untouchables certain persons have made them out to be.

Well, it's a sign that he isn't -- but he's also basically spent the whole thread saying that everyone else in the forum is an elitist prick, which is a little frustrating. In fact, he is the main one reiterating that NESers "hate" IOTers.

a) certain players' spheres are privileged over others, and/or b) whether a player "gets" NES has more to do with one's willingness to submit to this status quo than one's merits as a writer.

...what? I have never seen this. A player only has more influence if their country actually, in game, has more influence. Which is totally valid.

Speaking from my own observations in SilliNES 2, a couple of mesoamerican civs had magitek and a couple of European states went proto-steampunk, and suddenly it's canon law that the continents on opposite sides of the Atlantic must inherently follow different rules on magic.

That sounds more like a mod trying to weave together various player ideas into a coherent narrative than some sort of "elites determining the story" type thing.

You'll have to forgive my choice of illustration; as mentioned above and throughout the thread, given that Luckymoose is characterizing IOTers as mental retards, it's pretty easy to draw casual parallels to those levels of irrational hatred.

Myself, Iggy, and spry have all repeatedly disavowed Lucky's comments. I've told him, repeatedly, in private, that he's being a bit of a douche, and to stop. How exactly do you want us to further disown him?

What I mean is, my view on life is you beat prejudice with education, and the best way to educate is to integrate.

I just don't see this as being a very good argument for merging the forums, if there aren't other compelling reasons, which, to me, have yet to be established. Forced interaction has its usefulness, but even so...

What seems to be the idea emerging here is 1) I don't want the forums to merge. 2) It must be because I think IOTers could never adapt to NESer norms. 3) This must be because I think NESers are intrinsically better than IOTers, and that I therefore think IOTers are stupid. 4) Therefore, the forums should be merged. 5) Literally any counterargument to 2-4 simply redoubles point 1.

Basically, the pro-merger argument in this thread is adopting the position that literally any objection to their own arguments are both deluded and must be based in prejudice -- and this argument is infinitely self-reinforcing.

Citing this in case it got lost.

This is why I think the other petition in this very forum has ten times the merit of this one.

 

[Terrance888]

Speaking from my own observations in SilliNES 2, a couple of mesoamerican civs had magitek and a couple of European states went proto-steampunk, and suddenly it's canon law that the continents on opposite sides of the Atlantic must inherently follow different rules on magic.

I'm tots fine with "Airbenders" in North America. And proto-steampunk is Swabia only. The only rules on Magic is that it is to some extent rare, hard to get, and often requires sacrifice. Obvious corrollary is that magic near the Magitecs were studied by the Magitecs, and that Swabia is the only steampunk right now (specially since it is 1800, not 1850ish).

The other players had their own reasons for what they said, and from the way SilliNES was made, I had to agree with them. If it wasn't as SilliNES as it is, I would have WTFLOLPWN'd the Air Assassins as soon as I smelled them.