A question to Communists:

[Godwynn]

It's a proven fact that most goods come from the poor countries, that's just an irrelevant detail.

So you were wrong about the United States sustaining itself on cheap imported food? Okay.

If we remove the jobs from the poor countries, where would the workers do for a living then?

Let me apply your logic on the USSR to capitalism.

"Oh, Pinochet took democracy from Chile, he was a capitalist. Therefore, the entire philosophy *must* be evil."

I didn't say communism was evil. I said it sucked. There has not been one successful communist nation on this planet.

 

[George2816]

Even the U.S. has communists, sitting in lawnchairs at the Southern border trying to suppress the natural supply of labor.

Illegal labor! If companies don't want to obey the law why should anyone else?

 

[Wob Shop]

Ah, so it's only communism if it works perfectly. Anything else, even if something goes slightly wrong, its not communist. A poser of sorts.

Can the sarcasm and listen to this exerpt on early Russian Revolution history:

In other words, the conversion of the Bolshevik party into a fully fledged "democratic centralist" party occurred during the degeneration of the Revolution. This was both a consequence of the rising authoritarianism within the party and society as well as one of its causes. As such, it is quite ironic that the model used by modern day followers of Lenin is that of the party during the decline of the revolution, not its peak. This is not surprising. Once in power, the Bolshevik party imposed a state capitalist regime onto the Russian people. Can it be surprising that the party structure which it developed to aid this process was also based on bourgeois attitudes and organisation? Simply put, the party model advocated by Lenin may not have been very effective during a revolution but it was exceedingly effective at prompting hierarchy and authority in the post-revolutionary regime. It simply replaced the old ruling elite with another, made up of members of the radical intelligentsia and odd ex-worker or ex-peasant.

This was due to the hierarchical and top-down nature of the party Lenin had created. While the party base was largely working class, the leadership was not. Full-time revolutionaries, they were either middle-class intellectuals or (occasionally) ex-workers and (even rarer) ex-peasants who had left their class to become part of the party machine. Even the delegates at the party congresses did not truly reflect class basis of the party membership. For example, the number of delegates was still dominated by white-collar or others (59.1% to 40.9%) at the sixth party congress at the end of July 1917. [Cliff, Lenin, vol. 2, p. 160] So while the party gathered more working class members in 1917, it cannot be said that this was reflected in the party leadership which remained dominated by non-working class elements. Rather than being a genuine working class organisation, the Bolshevik party was a hierarchical group headed by non-working class elements whose working class base could not effectively control them even during the revolution in 1917. It was only effective because these newly joined and radicalised working class members ignored their own party structure and its defining ideology.

If this looks tl/dr I'll summarize by saying that the Bolsheviks were far removed from the actual idea of communism, which is to have workers controlling their lives and industries from the bottom up (note that this is impossible without a very profound level of direct, as opposed to representative, democracy)

They instead created a new ruling class of bureaucrats, like the French Revolutionaries before them.

 

[Godwynn]

Illegal labor! If companies don't want to obey the law why should anyone else?

That is the worst argument I've ever heard. Trying to justify a crime by saying someone else is committing one.

Penalize the corporations and move on.

 

[George2816]

That is the worst argument I've ever heard. Trying to justify a crime by saying someone else is committing one.

Penalize the corporations and move on.

What? Are you saying that being a communism is illegal or are you saying its illegal for people in the southwest to watch for illegal's?

 

[Wob Shop]

There has not been one successful communist nation on this planet.

That is because of the extremely incongruous idea that communism should come about in the from of a nation. When Marx said "Workers of the World Unite!" he didn't mean "Workers of Cuba Unite!" or"Workers of Russia Unite!" He wanted there to be no nationalism because it would ultimately divide workers and ensure that wars would continue between nations. I'm not exactly a Marxist but I think that this sentiment is essentially true.

A state is based upon the idea of power for some, powerlessness for most. If you really want communism you will need power for all. So a state won't do.

The closest example to communism in recent memory would be, in my mind, Anarchist Catalonia in 1936.

 

[Talkie_Toaster]

I didn't say communism was evil. I said it sucked. There has not been one successful communist nation on this planet.

59% of Americans don't believe in evolution.
You have a huge national debt.
People without health insurance can just go die as far as you're concerned.
You use people who are practically slaves in poorer countries to supply your citizens with the latest fasions.
Funny way of measuring sucess...

 

[philippe]

Communism doesn't work because capitalism encourages the greed which prevents communism from working.

However, we need to find the perfect middle ground between capitalism and communism as neither are inherently superior.

Quoted for truth fanboys.(left and right)

 

[Bill3000]

59% of Americans don't believe in evolution.
You have a huge national debt.
People without health insurance can just go die as far as you're concerned.
You use people who are practically slaves in poorer countries to supply your citizens with the latest fasions.
Funny way of measuring sucess...

False dichotomy.

 

[Godwynn]

59% of Americans don't believe in evolution.
You have a huge national debt.
People without health insurance can just go die as far as you're concerned.
You use people who are practically slaves in poorer countries to supply your citizens with the latest fasions.
Funny way of measuring sucess...

The United States is not real capitalism. It's a perversion of capitalism.

 

[Godwynn]

What? Are you saying that being a communism is illegal or are you saying its illegal for people in the southwest to watch for illegal's?

You said that if companies don't want to obey the law no one else should.

 

[Talkie_Toaster]

Quoted for truth fanboys.(left and right)

I'm really just opposing him because I find capitalism taken too far repugnant. I don't believe in total communism, I'd probably class myself as a Democratic Socialist, but I just felt the need to defend it.

 

[Wob Shop]

The United States is not real capitalism. It's a perversion of capitalism.

Maybe you're right, maybe it is more corporatist in nature. But I would still oppose real capitalism as a matter of principle.

 

[Godwynn]

That is because of the extremely incongruous idea that communism should come about in the from of a nation. When Marx said "Workers of the World Unite!" he didn't mean "Workers of Cuba Unite!" or"Workers of Russia Unite!" He wanted there to be no nationalism because it would ultimately divide workers and ensure that wars would continue between nations. I'm not exactly a Marxist but I think that this sentiment is essentially true.

A state is based upon the idea of power for some, powerlessness for most. If you really want communism you will need power for all. So a state won't do.

The closest example to communism in recent memory would be, in my mind, Anarchist Catalonia in 1936.

You wouldn't support one nation turning communist then? Only when the whole world is ready to?

 

[Godwynn]

Maybe you're right, maybe it is more corporatist in nature. But I would still oppose real capitalism as a matter of principle.

Would you rather live in the United States or North Korea?

 

[Talkie_Toaster]

The United States is not real capitalism. It's a perversion of capitalism.

Name 10 things that pervert capitalism in the US? Probably the very things that ensure at least a descent education and other social rights. The USSR had so far removed itself from Communism by the time of its collapse that any comparison is pointless.

 

[Wob Shop]

Would you rather live in the United States or North Korea?

What's your point? In North Korea there is a small class of ruling elites that exploit the labour of everybody else. That's not communism, it's closer to feudalism!

 

[Phlegmak]

I really wish all of you who support Communism that are living in nonCommunist nations to stop benefiting from your current standard of living and just go move to Communist nations. Just go there and leave the rest of the world alone.

 

[George2816]

I really wish all of you who support Communism that are living in nonCommunist nations to stop benefiting from your current standard of living and just go move to Communist nations. Just go there and leave the rest of the world alone.

When a nation that pays everyone the same and everyone is treated the same (Including the leaders!) i would move into it but until that time i think i'll stay in the USA (just because communist in the name of the country doesn't make it a communism country!)

 

[Bill3000]

Name 10 things that pervert capitalism in the US? Probably the very things that ensure at least a descent education and other social rights. The USSR had so far removed itself from Communism by the time of its collapse that any comparison is pointless.

Subsidies, antitrust legislation, legal monopolies, government-mandated safety and environmental regulation, progressive taxation, Federal Reserve, copyright and patent law, public works, bans on various items such as drugs, and government-business cooperation such as defense contractors.

It's quite clear that the US doesn't have true laissez-faire capitalism, and thus, isn't true capitalism.