A Rebuke

[LittleBoots]

Maybe if some people spent time to write proper orders (seeing as running a nation is no small task) when others in the game already do they wouldn't suck so much.

Without agreeing or disagreeing with the particulars, I will comment that Stormy's old NES (with Israelite's Pentapolis of Cyrenaica and my Hellenic Empire, among others) accepted orders of all sizes and complexities and meshed them together so that everyone played on the level they were happy with and had fun. It went for quite a while and was great fun. I will admit that I still sent rather developed order sets, particularly in regards to government structure and economics, but Stormy seemed to reward that while not necessarily punishing those who sent more simplistic orders.

That said, elitism certainly has its merits.

 

[Sheep]

I think less emphasis on the actual orders and more emphasis on the stories. If people werent wasting so long on sending such complex orders then perhaps we could get more stories and thus actually have stories in our NES - Never Ending Stories.

 

[Insane_Panda]

Yeah, you shouldnt punish short orders, but if they are used against complex and indepth orders which cover their bases much better, than the person who put more work into it should clearly reap the benefits.

Short orders do not mean bad plans, just as long orders do not mean good plans, its just I dont think we should neccessarily attempt to equalize everything when it clearly shouldnt be equal.

 

[Insane_Panda]

I think less emphasis on the actual orders and more emphasis on the stories. If people werent wasting so long on sending such complex orders then perhaps we could get more stories and thus actually have stories in our NES - Never Ending Stories.

However, NESing is hardly like that anymore. NESes, due to the nature of the update/stats/orders system, is all about orders. The mod, now, is the main storyteller, but he recieves his ideas from the players through their orders. The game has changed (your NES fitting into the current mode), and if you want a "Never-Ending Story" like the ones of old, you must abolish much of the rules and statistical systems of current NESes.

 

[LittleBoots]

Yeah, you shouldnt punish short orders, but if they are used against complex and indepth orders which cover their bases much better, than the person who put more work into it should clearly reap the benefits.

Short orders do not mean bad plans, just as long orders do not mean good plans, its just I dont think we should neccessarily attempt to equalize everything when it clearly shouldnt be equal.

This I will agree with. As for Sheep's comment, I do agree that stories are always great, but I personally write my orders almost like a story in themselves, something that mods have told me in the past they appreciate as it helps with writing the update and a lot of what I write in the orders comes through in that way. However, as the NES is for everyone's enjoyment, not just the mod's, I can still agree with the general sentiment that stories are good.

That does not mean, however, that I think complex orders are necessarily bad. My orders typically involve multiple aspects of the nation that can provide a wealth of material for the mod to write about, perhaps some things the mod hadn't considered or even imagined. Composers of complex orders can translate those orders (as I have done and imagine others have done with regularity, though I obviously don't know that empirically) into complex (or at least decent) stories.

Finally, before going to bed, I will say that the people I hear most often talked about when long orders are discussed (Panda, Symph, das, Stormy; as of late, Perfectionist and myself as well) tend to be those who are also some of the more prolific story writers (not that the correlation is exact, there are certainly those that do not fit the model, I'm only commenting on something).

Thus my assertions, my disclaimers, and my final statement of the night.

 

[fantasmo]

I suspect a few people that don't write stories in the thread, and don't send six dozen PMs of orders every turn have stories in the one PM they send, in some form or another. I sometimes do, having my propagandas taking up large portions of the 10,000 character limit. I don't think the story-writing's going out of NESing, so much as (at least in my case) we're a bit intimidated by the quantity AND quality of the stories people like LB, Panda, Symph and so forth do put out. It's a little daunting, to see a half-dozen stories per turn on how doomed everyone else is being put out by the multi-PM people, and each and every one of those stories being something that we can't compare to.

 

[Symphony D.]

It amuses me that I seem to be the only one thinks my stories are garbage.

 

[Sheep]

However, NESing is hardly like that anymore. NESes, due to the nature of the update/stats/orders system, is all about orders. The mod, now, is the main storyteller, but he recieves his ideas from the players through their orders. The game has changed (your NES fitting into the current mode), and if you want a "Never-Ending Story" like the ones of old, you must abolish much of the rules and statistical systems of current NESes.

Yes that is the sad and sorry truth and we are the poorer for it. May I turn your attention to something one of the first generation players the venerable SKILORD recently said?

n another note I HATE what NESes have become at CFC and I don't especially want to play with the community now. Not that I don't still like, say, EQ, das or Jason the King (if they still even do NESes), they were my boys back in the day and I still have to throw props their way, they are awesome. However I was always a proponent of story based NESes rather than board game ones and frankly last time I was at CFC it was obvious that the idea of a group of writers coming together and writing a story from different perspectives in a free, loose way was entirely dead, replaced by some vauge feeling of accomplishment or victory or competition or whatever. I understand, but I'll always miss Ad Infinitum (for the old school poly NESers) and RTOR (RTOR 2 has simply too legendary of a status for anyone to really not understand that reference) and all the other NESes that were never games so much as living stories in progress. It's not the fault of the people making the games, it's the necessity brought on by the people who play them.

This is the reason why you see older nesers leaving. This is the reason why you see the countless hordes of noobs flood the forums and that is why you see the majority of neses now not having stories at all. Just as NESing has nothing really to do with civ anymore, NESing doesnt have much to do with stories now either. Indeed the Golden Age is over and now we have nothing really to look forward to but simply a slow but distressing decline into stupidity and meta-gaming where the story is second to the elusive victory that we all seem to seek. Then comes the question: Why are we even here? and that my friends is the most frightening one of all, if you delve down deep and not just scratch the surface as many of us do, not willing to admit to even ourselves the true reasons for it.

Anyways put simply, more stories is required.

For those who are interested in knowing where I got that quote from for SKILORD look here http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=4800961&t=5031#post4800961

 

[Symphony D.]

the Golden Age is over and now we have nothing really to look forward to but simply a slow but distressing decline into stupidity and meta-gaming [...]

That's the second time I've seen the term "Golden Age" thrown around and, quite frankly, looking back on old NESes, they had their merits and their charm, that were different from those of today. But quite frankly, if that was the Golden Age, I'm glad its over, because it looks to me like nothing more than seeing the past through the rose-tinted lenses of nostalgia.

They had simple rules, exceedingly simple orders, simple stories, and a lot of silliness. In fact, a good number of movements and stories in those NESes were no stupider or nonsensical than what the "n00bs" do in NESes today. If anything, it was more prevalent. They were good. But they weren't great.

Maybe that sort of thing appeals to some people, but it doesn't to me. I suppose there's no accounting for taste, but honestly, I think the best days are yet to come, and all this doomsaying is nothing but defeatism and an aversion toward expending the effort to make things better. Pineing for the past solves nothing. If people are dissatisfied with the way things are, then they should strive to make them better, not sit around and moan about the past and build it into something it wasn't.

 

[das]

Precisely what I've been saying for months. Haven't there even been some more-or-less succesful retro NES attempts in the recent past?

 

[Kal'thzar]

Yeah, you shouldnt punish short orders, but if they are used against complex and indepth orders which cover their bases much better, than the person who put more work into it should clearly reap the benefits.

Short orders do not mean bad plans, just as long orders do not mean good plans, its just I dont think we should neccessarily attempt to equalize everything when it clearly shouldnt be equal.

not necessaraly the case, short orders can still be superior to long indepth orders. More specifically the military aspect. All it requires is for the short orders to do something unexpected and the long orders to do the expected.

 

[das]

As for Sheep's comment, I do agree that stories are always great, but I personally write my orders almost like a story in themselves, something that mods have told me in the past they appreciate as it helps with writing the update and a lot of what I write in the orders comes through in that way.

Same here, by the way, if we're talking about more or less the same thing. I've also made it a habit for myself to always write out my ruler's personality; I suspect that would help the mod as well, for unexpected situations, plus it always adds flavour and makes role-playing and story-writting easier for me.

 

[Thlayli]

Interesting opinions. I came in on the tail end of the legendary STNK's, StJ's, and the original ITNES, of course. And yes, with some exceptions, we've rarely reached that kind of peak since in terms of quality. LINES and DNES are notable exceptions though...and both leave me with hope.

NESing has changed, in some ways for the better, (the addition of the 'Cradle' concept, among other things,) and in some way for the worse (a perpetuation in certain endgame patterns, even if I'm not quite as pessimistic about it as others).

But yes, it's still coming.

EDIT: When I say "quality," I mean the 50/50 combination of good updates and good stories. There's an interesting pattern linking the number/frequency of stories, and how "healthy" or long-lasting a NES is...and I don't think it's a coincidence.

 

[Jason The King]

EDIT: When I say "quality," I mean the 50/50 combination of good updates and good stories. There's an interesting pattern linking the number/frequency of stories, and how "healthy" or long-lasting a NES is...and I don't think it's a coincidence.

Yes, its usually the more long lasting the NES, the more stories it starts to produce. With most NES's, the stories are prominent in the middle part, with the beginning being too soon to write, and the end most players don't have the will.

as for the topic at hand: yes, its true, the forums is changing/has changed, i myself prefer the times before, but its really just a matter of opinion. I can see why people like these times more, its not that these times are "inferior," it just different, so it comes down to a matter of opinion.

And there really is no way of going back to the "good ole days." Their done, we need to embrace the new times and make the best of it.

That said, I've had a good break from NESing, but I think I'm ready to return, even if it is to the new times with all you slack jawed yokals .

 

[LightFang]

You know, now I'm wondering if I'm part of this influx of no0bs.

I feel sad now. I think I'm learning, and trying, right? I mean, just because I haven't been in as many games, or really -know- too much about stuff...But still. I'm trying!

I haven't been here for this supposed "Golden Age", but whatever. We should move forward and press on. You can't please everybody all the time...And its natural for some people to leave when it no longer suits them.

 

[alex994]

Aye, LightFang is right. The Golden Age is nothing but to one's perception. Personally speaking, the Golden Age wasn't so Golden, but simply an illusion that could not stand. Fools linger in the past while those who look towards the future will suceed. Just look at Neo-confucianists Ming China, progress must be made.

While most "noobs" shame me, there are some that have proven to be very successful. I would like to point out Niklas, as well as perfectionist, two exemplary examples of what we should be grateful for. Perhaps instead of worrying over what we don't have, we should be grateful for what we do?

 

[Lord_Iggy]

Interesting opinions. I came in on the tail end of the legendary STNK's, StJ's, and the original ITNES, of course. And yes, with some exceptions, we've rarely reached that kind of peak since in terms of quality. LINES and DNES are notable exceptions though...and both leave me with hope.

NESing has changed, in some ways for the better, (the addition of the 'Cradle' concept, among other things,) and in some way for the worse (a perpetuation in certain endgame patterns, even if I'm not quite as pessimistic about it as others).

But yes, it's still coming.

EDIT: When I say "quality," I mean the 50/50 combination of good updates and good stories. There's an interesting pattern linking the number/frequency of stories, and how "healthy" or long-lasting a NES is...and I don't think it's a coincidence.

Yes, I joined StJNES5 just as it closed... an end of an era.

Aye, LightFang is right. The Golden Age is nothing but to one's perception. Personally speaking, the Golden Age wasn't so Golden, but simply an illusion that could not stand. Fools linger in the past while those who look towards the future will suceed. Just look at Neo-confucianists Ming China, progress must be made.

While most "noobs" shame me, there are some that have proven to be very successful. I would like to point out Niklas, as well as perfectionist, two exemplary examples of what we should be grateful for. Perhaps instead of worrying over what we don't have, we should be grateful for what we do?

Hear hear!

 

[Insane_Panda]

Kalthzar, you quote me, and proceed to ignore the bottom half of the quote, which states EXACTLY WHAT YOU STATED.

However, show me a set of short (short being significantly less than 1 full PM) orders better than any of my NES2 VI orders I've posted in the order thread, or any of Symphony's orders, and I will agree with you.

 

[Insane_Panda]

Sheep, how were the NESes of the "golden age" superior to say, GoobNES, ITNES I and II, or NES2 VI.

As far as I can discern from looking at them, the orders, diplomacy and stories of the newer NESes, along with the updates, were much more indepth and of better quality. ESPECIALLY orders and diplomacy. The NESes of yesteryear seemed to lack a certain degree of complexity or intellectual depth.

 

[Kal'thzar]

I think i was trying to say thats it not nessecaraly clear. Wether it is good or bad. Bah.

And I disagree with the orders thread, or at least, with posting my own orders.