A solution for Iraq

[Antilogic]

@Funky: I can agree with you to large extent but there are some half-truths and ignorance of subtler fact which can be as destructive as lies.

@Funky ... a great assessment of the current situation, albeit with a few errors as pointed out above. It also, made me think about the idea of "The Greater Good", mentioned earlier.

Err, what are you guys seeing that I am not?



Also, Ajidica, you forgot about the prohibitions against mixed fabrics. Should probably punish those cotton-polyester blend wearing heathens with death.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

I am just being symphatetic. Also isnt it part of good rhetoric to point out the best on your oponent before you unleash merciless criticism to try to crush him into dust? But mainly I apreciate honest and lenghty imput.

 

[Tahuti]

The typical European populist and naive Atheist critique of Islam assumes a top-down model in which a directing influence (in this case Islam) controls the people under its influence. This isn't the case, rather, it is because the populace interprets Islam that way. A largely cultural and ideological thing, rather than a religious one.

 

[kiwitt]

@Funky ... a great assessment of the current situation, albeit with a few errors as pointed out above. It also, made me think about the idea of "The Greater Good", mentioned earlier.

Err, what are you guys seeing that I am not?

This

American foreign policy can be criticized for many of its missteps. And it is. In fact, there is hardly an easier endeavour than to jump on the bandwagon and point out just how bad the evil Americans are behaving. But let's get real. The Americans are not exhibiting behaviour anywhere close to what Muslims are doing around the globe. It's not even on the same spectrum. The West in general is not exhibiting this behaviour. In fact, nobody on this planet is doing this, apart from Muslims, who are doing it all the time. I know this is an inconvenient truth, but it is the truth. Again, check the list of terror attacks in the last years. Apart from the odd exception they are all committed by Muslims. On a daily basis. This is the current evil in the world. It is not America. It is Islam.

I have to agree with most of this assessment that the majority of terrorist attacks are Muslim.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents,_2015

 

[Timsup2nothin]

This I have to agree with most of this assessment that the majority of terrorist attacks are Muslim.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents,_2015

Those evil Muslims with their terrorist attacks! Why don't they use tanks and air strikes like civilized people? F'ing barbarians!

 

[Ajidica]

This I have to agree with most of this assessment that the majority of terrorist attacks are Muslim.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents,_2015

It is worth pointing out that when controlling for economic/social conditions that are conducive to terrorism, the religion of the perpetrator is statistically insignificant.

 

[Berzerker]

All religions have had a violent, sordid past full of events they aren't proud of. I trust you are well read enough to not need a refresher course on all of the nasty and brutal actions done by Christians in the name of God.

Past is present, but hell yeah, if Christians start blathering about their religion of peace then their history deserves to be thrown right back in their faces.
And there's still plenty of brutal, nasty Christians running around hurting people.

 

[kiwitt]

It is worth pointing out that when controlling for economic/social conditions that are conducive to terrorism, the religion of the perpetrator is statistically insignificant.

So being poor is an excuse to blow up your local community market or police station. It needs to be noted that many of those terrorist attacks are against their own people.

Those evil Muslims with their terrorist attacks! Why don't they use tanks and air strikes like civilized people? F'ing barbarians!

If you read my earlier posts I don't support that either.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13860206&postcount=16
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13861061&postcount=34
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13861122&postcount=39
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13863278&postcount=102
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13863399&postcount=106

Violence on civilians of any kind can never justified

 

[onejayhawk]

Unfortunately, that is a recent western attitude. Violence to civilians is a traditional tactic throughout the world.

J

 

[Ajidica]

So being poor is an excuse to blow up your local community market or police station. It needs to be noted that many of those terrorist attacks are against their own people.

Actually incorrect. Increase in per capita income can have a positive or negative effect on rate of terrorism, but the stronger factor is the % growth in GDP/capita. I wrote a paper on this for college and my results were largely consistent with academic literature. I can provide sources if you want.

(Looking at the paper again, my god the methodology is rough. No logging of the variables for start.)

 

[onejayhawk]

Student work can be embarrassing later. That seems strangely appropriate for this thread.

J

 

[Funky]

everything about Islam you have written is equally true of the Bible and many other violent faiths. Colonization and the Crusades were not happy-go-lucky kumbaya moments.

In Catholic history, the same office that called on Christians to butcher their way to Jerusalem, ordered people to be burned at the stake, and declared that democracy was a moral evil incompatible with Christianity is today

This is another one of these strange moments in which I find myself defending Christianity. I am an atheist. I think that all religions are made-up and silly. But that doesn't mean they are all equally harmful. Religions don't all teach the same things. And the specifics matter. In the bible there is nothing comparable to Jihad. There is no call for violence against unbelievers. Many of its teachings are horribly out-dated or just downright immoral, like the condoning of slavery. But it is not a guideline to fight holy wars and kill infidels. Jesus was essentially a hippy who got crucified. He was not a conquering warlord who personally beheaded people, like Mohammed was. Yes, there is the occasional odd verse, like "I did not come to bring peace, but a sword." But these verses do not make up the gist of what the bible, and certainly not the New Testament, is about.
Furthermore, the bible is a collection of stories and gospels, which mostly refer to specific events of the time it was written. It is much easier to view these stories in light of their historical context. The Koran's teachings, on the other hand, follow the narrative of an instruction manual on how believers should live their lives. They are much harder to restrain to a specific time, and they contain countless direct orders as to how Muslims should act in general.

That's not to say that it isn't possible for the bible to inspire horrendous acts of barbarism. But by and large, these don't happen anymore. The crusades were bad. They were also a response to the century-long conquering of large swaths of land all around Europe by Muslims, but for the sake of argument let's leave that aside. The crusades started almost 1,000 years ago. How are they relevant to a discussion about today's threats to civilization? Christians no longer fight religious wars. Yes, Christianity served as a justification for the horrors of colonization. Yes, the inquisition and the burning of supposed witches were terrible. But this is all century-old stuff. The fact that you have to bring it up to show the barbarism of Christianity just proves my point. These things don't happen anymore among Christians.

Let's look at the most fundamental Christians in the West. What does the Westboro Baptist Church do? They are a few dozen people who bring their "God hates fags" signs to funerals. Ken Ham builds his dinosaur museum and wants to have creationism taught in schools. Big deal. These people are ridiculed all the time. They are not killing people. They are not subjugating women, committing honour killings, stoning homosexuals, striving for a theocracy, oppressing free speech, commiting acts of terrorism. Ok, in recent years Uganda has seen acts of violence committed in the name of Christianity. That is one country. And these acts are condemned by every other Christian on the planet. This is not comparable to the current state of Islam at all.

And finally, even if it was, even if Christians were behaving just as reprehensibly as Muslims, that still wouldn't absolve Islam from criticism. Two wrongs don't make a right. The fact is that Muslims are committing terrible acts all the time. This is not a Christian problem. It is a problem with Islam. And it has to be discussed honestly.

Estimates on the number of killed, wounded, and displaced in Iraq range from 150,000 on the low side to up to a million or more

The result of U.S. invasion was over million of dead that something which is well documented.

As you correctly point out, these numbers are estimates of people who have been killed by violence after the war. They were not killed by Americans. They were killed by other Muslims, in their brutal religious feuds. We can blame the US for unleashing this religious violence. But the reasons Shiites are drilling holes into the heads of Sunnis, or blowing each other up on weddings or in hospitals, are their insane religious beliefs.

I provided which included a letter by over 100 prominent Muslim scholars on that very topic.

That is great. I mean, normally it should not even be noteworthy that people condemn killing innocent people or denying women their rights. This is basic moral common sense. You won't see me posting in forums about how great of a thing it is that some Muslims are against the barbarism of the Koran and prefer to ignore or re-interpret problematic verses. Obviously many Muslims are peaceful, have nothing to do with Jihad, and share all the values we hold in the West. These are not the people we are talking about. They are not the problem. The hundreds of millions of Muslims who do take the Koran literally and participate in or support the ongoing Islamic violence around the globe are.

You are asking how can people behave like this? Look what nazis have been doing. Does it mean I have to hate and curse all the Germans? No just like with muslims I am going to respect Germans and act fair and support the progressive elements within the society. We have to take honest and positive aproach. And if we dont try to ecxploit our partners playing side-games they are going to respect us back.

In these lines you cover the crucial distinction between criticizing people and criticizing ideas. As I said before, I am not criticizing all Muslims. I am focused on the specific doctrines of Islam which lead to the abhorrent behaviour that many Muslims display all the time. And the solution to the problem can indeed only be to empower moderate Muslims and help them reform their faith. Unfortunately, at the moment the most outspoken ones who could become true reformers have an immensely difficult stand. On the one side they have to deal with fatwas and death threats from other Muslims for their blasphemy, on the other side they have to combat the opinion that has become wide-spread among the left in America and Europe, namely that Islam isn't a problem and any criticism of it, even by Muslims, is a sign of bigotry and should not be taken seriously.

This is especially difficult to fathom as people on the left are by and large pro freedom of speech, pro women's rights, pro gay rights, pro secularism and pro human equality. In other words they are diametrically opposed to the central tenets of Islam. Yet in their often seen attempt to shut down any criticism of Islam and downplay the role of the religion, they are supporting the very forces which are against everything they otherwise stand for.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

So we agree that as a result of U.S. invasion of only Iraq alone there is over million people dead. How many are dead becouse of islamic fanatics in the same time period? Now most educated or simply good muslims would never consider these fanatics acting in the name of Islam just like I dont consider Bush administration acting in the name of Christianity. Yet due to our ignorant thinking it may appear that this is what is happening.
US has over 30 military bases in the area of middle East to keep stability. Again this isnt the case to support Christianity or Islam. Its to support its geopolitical and bussiness interests. But is the US interest the same as an interest of people of religion which allowes defensive war? I doubt it. Is it possible that these religious followers are feeling threatend by this military arsenal of people with different religion and culture? Quite possibly.

I am not against constructive criticism of Islam or anything which can be perfected. I am against ignorance, stupidity and cherished sense of superiority. Lets try to learn from other cultures instead of imposing ours on others. There are many ways to goal and not single one and only. If some other culture discovers through interaction with mine or on its own in process of its development that it needs to get rid of some of its less progressive elements thats wonderfull but imposing my will over other cultures to enslave them even if in more subtle economic ways leads to suppression and logically to reaction.

 

[Antilogic]

I am just being symphatetic. Also isnt it part of good rhetoric to point out the best on your oponent before you unleash merciless criticism to try to crush him into dust? But mainly I apreciate honest and lenghty imput.

Eh, fair enough.

This I have to agree with most of this assessment that the majority of terrorist attacks are Muslim.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents,_2015

This is heavily dependent on the definition of terrorism and thus how you count. Drone strikes that kill civilians, for example, are not included in the tally. But I think this attribution to Islam is fundamentally flawed. We wouldn't say that Obama and previously Bush are conducting drone strikes because they are Christian, and it is Christian violence directed against infidels. Or would we?

Unfortunately, that is a recent western attitude. Violence to civilians is a traditional tactic throughout the world.

Very recent. The systematic targeting of civilian populations for mass bombings was common amongst the belligerents in the Second World War, and targeted killing of civilians occurred in later conflicts (i.e. Vietnam). But we don't call it terrorism or associate it with the Christian faith, because REASONS.

This is another one of these strange moments in which I find myself defending Christianity. I am an atheist. I think that all religions are made-up and silly.

Same here. The core of the criticism I have is that you have adopted a fairly weak atheist argument instead of a stronger one, and it fundamentally misdirects our attention.

But that doesn't mean they are all equally harmful. Religions don't all teach the same things. And the specifics matter. In the bible there is nothing comparable to Jihad. There is no call for violence against unbelievers. Many of its teachings are horribly out-dated or just downright immoral, like the condoning of slavery. But it is not a guideline to fight holy wars and kill infidels. Jesus was essentially a hippy who got crucified. He was not a conquering warlord who personally beheaded people, like Mohammed was. Yes, there is the occasional odd verse, like "I did not come to bring peace, but a sword." But these verses do not make up the gist of what the bible, and certainly not the New Testament, is about.
Furthermore, the bible is a collection of stories and gospels, which mostly refer to specific events of the time it was written. It is much easier to view these stories in light of their historical context. The Koran's teachings, on the other hand, follow the narrative of an instruction manual on how believers should live their lives. They are much harder to restrain to a specific time, and they contain countless direct orders as to how Muslims should act in general.

It is convenient to exclude the Old Testament and its smattering of utterly insane violence, incest, rape, and slavery.

It may be convenient for Muslims to exclude the violent parts of the Quran, if they so choose.

Though I feel bad for my Hebros, they don't have a New Testament to fall back on.

That's not to say that it isn't possible for the bible to inspire horrendous acts of barbarism. But by and large, these don't happen anymore. The crusades were bad. They were also a response to the century-long conquering of large swaths of land all around Europe by Muslims, but for the sake of argument let's leave that aside. The crusades started almost 1,000 years ago. How are they relevant to a discussion about today's threats to civilization? Christians no longer fight religious wars. Yes, Christianity served as a justification for the horrors of colonization. Yes, the inquisition and the burning of supposed witches were terrible. But this is all century-old stuff. The fact that you have to bring it up to show the barbarism of Christianity just proves my point. These things don't happen anymore among Christians.

Let's look at the most fundamental Christians in the West. What does the Westboro Baptist Church do? They are a few dozen people who bring their "God hates fags" signs to funerals. Ken Ham builds his dinosaur museum and wants to have creationism taught in schools. Big deal. These people are ridiculed all the time. They are not killing people. They are not subjugating women, committing honour killings, stoning homosexuals, striving for a theocracy, oppressing free speech, commiting acts of terrorism. Ok, in recent years Uganda has seen acts of violence committed in the name of Christianity. That is one country. And these acts are condemned by every other Christian on the planet. This is not comparable to the current state of Islam at all.

Why are we talking about Mohammed personally beheading people, then?

For the second half, you jumped me on Kony's so-called Lord's Resistance Army, but that's not the only place in the world where there are Christians committing acts of terrorism (see Central African Republic, China, India, for example). How about female genital mutilation carried out in mostly Christian countries like Ethiopia and Eritrea? Okay, for the US how about the Sikh temple shooting, the Oklahoma City bombing, murdering abortion doctors and bombing clinics, and Christian militia groups? Lynching and Jim Crow, justified by its perpetrators with the Christian faith, happened in our if not our parents' lifetimes. Okay, maybe grandparents, I know there are some younger people on the forum. But it's in living memory.

The issue here is the underlying motives of people who are committing these acts. Whatever quote from a dusty old book they use to justify it is an ancillary point at best.

And finally, even if it was, even if Christians were behaving just as reprehensibly as Muslims, that still wouldn't absolve Islam from criticism. Two wrongs don't make a right. The fact is that Muslims are committing terrible acts all the time. This is not a Christian problem. It is a problem with Islam. And it has to be discussed honestly.

Agreed with the first point, but my problem is with motives and misattribution, not excusing the behavior.

As you correctly point out, these numbers are estimates of people who have been killed by violence after the war. They were not killed by Americans. They were killed by other Muslims, in their brutal religious feuds. We can blame the US for unleashing this religious violence. But the reasons Shiites are drilling holes into the heads of Sunnis, or blowing each other up on weddings or in hospitals, are their insane religious beliefs.

Err, more than just soldiers were killed by Americans, and if you consider our mercenaries "security contractors" the body count grows. Our drone program also has an officially undisclosed miss rate/collateral damage rate, which is code for killing innocent civilians. That's not counting all the other incidents that have been reported on over the years.

In these lines you cover the crucial distinction between criticizing people and criticizing ideas. As I said before, I am not criticizing all Muslims. I am focused on the specific doctrines of Islam which lead to the abhorrent behaviour that many Muslims display all the time. And the solution to the problem can indeed only be to empower moderate Muslims and help them reform their faith. Unfortunately, at the moment the most outspoken ones who could become true reformers have an immensely difficult stand. On the one side they have to deal with fatwas and death threats from other Muslims for their blasphemy, on the other side they have to combat the opinion that has become wide-spread among the left in America and Europe, namely that Islam isn't a problem and any criticism of it, even by Muslims, is a sign of bigotry and should not be taken seriously.

This is especially difficult to fathom as people on the left are by and large pro freedom of speech, pro women's rights, pro gay rights, pro secularism and pro human equality. In other words they are diametrically opposed to the central tenets of Islam. Yet in their often seen attempt to shut down any criticism of Islam and downplay the role of the religion, they are supporting the very forces which are against everything they otherwise stand for.

Let me try a different tack to sum up this disagreement: you have it backwards. The specific doctrines of Islam or what-have-you don't lead to abhorrent behavior, because there are hundreds of millions who follow this and aren't mass murderers. Instead, abhorrent, mentally disturbed people justify their crimes with Islam, Christianity, or whatever other reason they can dream up. If you are an atheist, you would probably agree that gods, religious doctrines, etc. are ultimately made up by humans and not supernaturally imposed, right? So I say the blame rests with the humans responsible for the invention. And those human motives are much, much more complicated.

 

[Ajidica]

^^What Antilogic said.
Rather not spend half an hour typing up a post that rehashes (and probably inferior to) what Antilogic posted.

 

[onejayhawk]

^^What Antilogic said.
Rather not spend half an hour typing up a post that rehashes (and probably inferior to) what Antilogic posted.

Antilogic agreed with me. Something must be off.

J

 

[Antilogic]

^^What Antilogic said.
Rather not spend half an hour typing up a post that rehashes (and probably inferior to) what Antilogic posted.

I'm certain there's more to add.

Antilogic agreed with me. Something must be off.

J

It happens... rarely.

Let's just enjoy the moment until we go back to one of the 2016 threads.

 

[kiwitt]

This is heavily dependent on the definition of terrorism and thus how you count. Drone strikes that kill civilians, for example, are not included in the tally.

Direct targeting of civilians to instil 'terror' in the population is how I define terrorism. While I abhor the US definition of collateral damage, they can not be deemed 'acts of terror', but I can see how it can encourage terrorists to respond in kind. So I disagree with those tactics as well, because they are effectively 'war crimes' if the 'War on Terrorism' is defined as an actual war under the Geneva convention.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Having spent my military career involved in weapons platforms based on the "screw with us we incinerate every city in your country" principle I am left less concerned than most with someone blowing up a handful of civilians. It may be tacky, but it's effective...and for most users it is really all they have to work with.

 

[warpus]

American foreign policy can be criticized for many of its missteps. And it is. In fact, there is hardly an easier endeavour than to jump on the bandwagon and point out just how bad the evil Americans are behaving. But let's get real. The Americans are not exhibiting behaviour anywhere close to what Muslims are doing around the globe. It's not even on the same spectrum. The West in general is not exhibiting this behaviour. In fact, nobody on this planet is doing this, apart from Muslims, who are doing it all the time. I know this is an inconvenient truth, but it is the truth. Again, check the list of terror attacks in the last years. Apart from the odd exception they are all committed by Muslims. On a daily basis. This is the current evil in the world. It is not America. It is Islam.

You're comparing a religion to a nation state? That's kind of weird.