What are people's thoughts over in here in CFC on the DAS KAPITAL, Rosa Luxembourg, Lenin, Ho Chi Minh, Pol Pot and Mao?
Specific question: Who do you think was most close to achieveing Communism?
Do you think that DAS KAPITAL is mostly correct? If NNOT, then what are your views of a model Communist country?(The Communards were DEFINITELY NOT, THE USSR WAS NOT, THE NORTH KOREANS ARE NOT, AND CHINA WAS NOT)
Oh boy. Here comes the defense of imaginary commumism based in the disregard of actual communism and instead upon utopian theory (which is, of course, mostly accurate :crazy: I find that theories are rarely well defended by discounting all actual occurences. It would be like the scientific method ignoring the data-collecting step and still claiming empirical status because of a lovely introduction.
Personally I think Socialism is crap, Karl Marx, and all theses Marxist-Socialist-Communist Leaders were crap, but that's just me,cuz Im way too to the right.
Oh boy. Here comes the defense of imaginary commumism based in the disregard of actual communism and instead upon utopian theory (which is, of course, mostly accurate :crazy: I find that theories are rarely well defended by discounting all actual occurences. It would be like the scientific method ignoring the data-collecting step and still claiming empirical status because of a lovely introduction.
So you are asking for a defense of imaginary communism? Masochist much?
Thank you.Finally a decent answer!!
First, I'm a Rightist, almost reactionary.
I once studied under a professor of mine and he said this:
The Russians sadly did not have enough time to even start towards Communism(The Russian Civil War, New Economic Policy, etc）Lenin died before he could start, and Stalin screwed it up; The CHinese interestingly tried two times towards Communism(the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution) but both failed due to political, social, and economic complications.Pol Pot was radical enough to empty whole cities into the farms to work the fields. I think it was called the Year Zero Plan....
Das Kapital - Never read it and don't know what it's about, but I am in favor of low tax, pro-capital investment, so I guess I might like it if it is an explanation of capitalistic theory.
Rosa Lux... - never heard of her. Edit - just looked her up. It doesn't look like she did much. A theorist that spent all her time blaming others for failing at one thing or another. She even thought the Bolsheviks did it wrong, so to speak. I agree, I don't like her.
Lenin - ego, too uppity. I don't like communism in general... it blatantly ignores the double-sidedness, or yin-yang-ness of humanity. I like a system that will encourage the "better angels of our nature". The "Reds" ain't it.
Ho Chi Minh - I wish he were on our side. The guy was unstoppable. I read "the 10,000 day war" and early on, apparently he thought the Americans (i.e. "we") would be useful allies to help his nationalist agenda. Well, he got the legendary brush off, and the Soviets helped him instead. We got our first official military defeat.
Pol Pot - horrible in a Mugabe sort of way, except much more effective at killing "his" countrymen.
Mao - personally no clue about this guy, he seems respected, maybe he was forgiven his mistakes
My political values? That's a loaded question. I'll see what I can do.
edit - There's a lot there, so I'll spoiler it to save page space.
Spoiler:
pro-investment, pro-capital, moderate, as moderates go in the USA anyway, more socially libertarian than I used to be, but I still like hanging out with moral-minded people. Can't stand really closed-minded people any more, though. (Yep, they aren't the same subset.)
I voted for President Clinton twice (happy about that choice, except the illicit stuff with a cigar and a dress).
I voted Bush twice (at the time the least bad of the horrible choices, but he proved me wrong by doing far worse than expected. He refused to admit a mistake, any mistake, and followed some of them to disaster... philosophically believed government should be slowly starved into ineffectiveness, and willingly put incompetents in charge of critical roles... like director of FEMA! should I deny I voted for him in retrospect? Naah, I prefer to learn from my bad choices.)
...and finally Obama (finally happy about a choice again, actually campaigned for him locally. That was awesome seeing the one of the most competent choices win for once.)
Das Kapital - Never read it and don't know what it's about, but I am in favor of low tax, pro-capital investment, so I guess I might like it if it is an explanation of capitalistic theory.
Rosa Lux... - never heard of her. I liked Rosa Parks, though. Nice lady, gave a talk in the Detroit area when I was a kid IIRC. Taught me that being bold can pay off.
Lenin - ego, too uppity. I don't like communism in general... it blatantly ignores the double-sidedness, or yin-yang-ness of humanity. I like a system that will encourage the "better angels of our nature". The "Reds" ain't it.
Ho Chi Minh - I wish he were on our side. The guy was unstoppable. I read "the 10,000 day war" and early on, apparently he thought the Americans (i.e. "we") would be useful allies to help his nationalist agenda. Well, he got the legendary brush off, and the Soviets helped him instead. We got our first official military defeat.
Pol Pot - horrible in a Mugabe sort of way, except much more effective at killing "his" countrymen.
Mao - personally no clue about this guy, he seems respected, maybe he was forgiven his mistakes
My political values? That's a loaded question. I'll see what I can do.
edit - There's a lot there, so I'll spoiler it to save page space.
Spoiler:
pro-investment, pro-capital, moderate, as moderates go in the USA anyway, more socially libertarian than I used to be, but I still like hanging out with moral-minded people. Can't stand really closed-minded people any more, though. (Yep, they aren't the same subset.)
I voted for President Clinton twice (happy about that choice, except the illicit stuff with a cigar and a dress).
I voted Bush twice (at the time the least bad of the horrible choices, but he proved me wrong by doing far worse than expected. He refused to admit a mistake, any mistake, and followed some of them to disaster... philosophically believed government should be slowly starved into ineffectiveness, and willingly put incompetents in charge of critical roles... like director of FEMA! should I deny I voted for him in retrospect? Naah, I prefer to learn from my bad choices.)
...and finally Obama (finally happy about a choice again, actually campaigned for him locally. That was awesome seeing the one of the most competent choices win for once.)
Thx man. Political views are good.
But wait you didnt vote for Al Gore?
He made a movie!!!!!
But you really should try to understand more about the LEFT and their ideals. Its pretty interesting. And Rosa Luxembourg was better than Lenin;
lol. It was a close choice. At the time, I didn't really believe either one, and when Gore pulled his late election "populist" message, he turned me off. I thought to myself, how bad could Bush do? (Hey, the movie came out years later. I'm not a time traveller!)
edit - Back to topic, I looked up Das Kapital. Marx wrote it. I would probably have issues with it. I'm not "left".
edit 2 - I'm not really "right" either, but that would depend where you set the center. With regards to communism, though, they can keep it. Even in this recession, I'll take a dynamic capitalist system any day. There's just some work we need to do to help stabilize the situation. No reason to scrap what works in the panic.
lol. It was a close choice. At the time, I didn't really believe either one, and when Gore pulled his late election "populist" message, he turned me off. I thought to myself, how bad could Bush do? (Hey, the movie came out years later. I'm not a time traveller!)
edit - Back to topic, I looked up Das Kapital. Marx wrote it. I would probably have issues with it. I'm not "left".
edit 2 - I'm not really "right" either, but that would depend where you set the center. With regards to communism, though, they can keep it. Even in this recession, I'll take a dynamic capitalist system any day. There's just some work we need to do to help stabilize the situation. No reason to scrap what works in the panic.
Rosa Luxemburg helped to create democracy in Germany. Of all the people you listed, she's undeniably the least "bad," if you want to call it that. Not that Uncle Ho was a horrible person, either. Naturally I think quite highly of both of them, but I'm quite above hero-worshiping of most any sort.
I'm not a hero worshipper either, and their ideas are terrible.
Still, I can tell the difference between Pol Pot and Ho Chi Minth. Try not to assume that I know nothing about any of them. I know it's easy to dismiss someone on the opposite side of the spectrum.
Rosa Luxemburg helped to create democracy in Germany. Of all the people you listed, she's undeniably the least "bad," if you want to call it that. Not that Uncle Ho was a horrible person, either. Naturally I think quite highly of both of them, but I'm quite above hero-worshiping of most any sort.
Thx forsaying so good things about Rosa Luxemurg. I think she might have done better if Germany had succeded in the Spartacist Revolt. She might have built a better socialist contry compared to China or the USSR. Uncle Ho wasnt great, but he made America reel in defeat. I highly respect the Viet Minh.
I'm not a hero worshipper either, and their ideas are terrible.
Still, I can tell the difference between Pol Pot and Ho Chi Minth. Try not to assume that I know nothing about any of them. I know it's easy to dismiss someone on the opposite side of the spectrum.
I'm on the right too. Politically +8, economically +6; but I have only respect for the leftists and what they tried to accomplished.(Besides the fact that they deny GOD,I'm Christian).
Have you actually read Das Kapital? Marx was and still is one of the most important economic and political thinkers in the last 300 years. Whether you agree with him or not it's just illiterate to dismiss him out of hand without actually reading what he wrote.
People forget that he only expected a Comunist revolution to occur in an advanced capitalist country like Germany. He dismissed the possibility of it being successful in a backward feudal state like Russia. In that, Rosa Luxemburg and Karl Liebnitz were more right than Lenin, Stalin or Mao.
As for the others, Ho Chi Minh was a patriot and socialist who only turned to Russia for help when foolishly rejected by the U.S. The same with Castro. Why does America insist on making the same stupid mistakes again and again? Siding with brutal right-wing dictatorships instead of those who seek to replace them with social democracy is a dominant feature of American foriegn policy for the past 100 years.
As for Pol Pot. what can I say? A deluded genocidal despot who used a twisted variety of Communist utopianism as an excuse for a misguided experiment in social levelling? But hardly the only one in history from the left or the right political tradition. Mugabe is yet another example of a well-meaning revolutionary leader who descended to the depths of barbarity and despotism once he tasted the temptations of power. Hardly the first and certainly not the last. Marx once replied when asked if history repeated itself.
"Yes, of course. First as tragedy. Secondly as farce."
BTW I am a historian and a democratic socialist who does understand the difference between Communism and Socialism. (An understanding most Americans sadly lack, IMO). Enjoy your Christmas.
Pol Pot was an evil bastard. A few million were killed by him, along with thousands of deaths due to his crazy policies. Ho Chih Min was a fervent nationalist. He was communist sure, but he was most certainly a nationalist... speaking of which it was never necessary for the US to make him into an enemy. Sadly, it wasn't until the opening up of China that the US finally realized that Communism wasn't a monolithic block and that various flavorings existed that could be made friendly to the US. But whatever.
Lenin always struck me as a pompous person. The world would have probably been better off if he was never born, or perhaps if he was stranded in Switzerland.
Mao? He only succeeded in kicking out the nationalists and creating the PRC. Everything else he did had terrible results for the country with little in the way of redeeming results. The Chinese should tear down everything related to him and paste up Deng Xiopeng, he is the man who made China successful.
I honestly never read Luxembourg. I probably should dig up what she has to say.
Marx was a pompous man who sat in a library writing political treatises while his family starved. He had some good ideas, some bad ones, but the world would have been better off if he was never born.
Anyway, True Communism, in terms of professed communists, is actually a stateless society in which everything is equal and a government is no longer needed. Oppression and exploitation would no longer exist. A pipe dream. Who came closet to this? Crap, maybe the Paris Commune? True Communism and the dream Anarchist society seem to be one in the same, just a different way of getting there. Anarchists of course believing that top down power is inherently wrong and must be overthrown to achieve this dream society, while Communists believe that a Dictatorship of the Proletariat and a reorganization of society is needed before government would wither away.
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