Aaaarmy Training, Sir!

Izuul · Aug 28, 2014

I have thought about Archery. There are a couple issues with that though. Archers can only kill barb archers by defending on defensible terrain and waiting for the barbs to attack, and they are also half the speed of chariots. That would require an additional tech too, which wouldn't take too long, but beakers are beakers.

The gold sites are so far away here that just defending all of this territory with archers could be challenging. Up to you guys to make the call on that though. I tend to play fairly conservatively most of the time.

Deonnim · Aug 28, 2014

So, this post will probably just be me talking aloud and figuring things out. This difficulty is 2 lvls higher than what I'm currently playing on, which is 2 levels higher than my previous times, so I'm a little over my head with all of the strategies behind this, yet I'm going to try and see what I can come up with.

If we tech'd Archery after Writing, we could start getting defenders out fairly quickly and push them to spawn bust, defend our cities, snag potential sites. We would have to wait until the Settler is finished and horses are hooked up to put out Chariots, I'm not sure how quickly the barbs will be a nuisance within our borders. But the Chariots sounds like a better long term solution than the archers for defenders.

Our area doesn't look to be highly productive, so we would be relying more on whips to get out a HA rush, yes? Wouldn't that extend the amount of time it would take to get them out of the gate, and from what I can remember Izzy can be an easy AI to have as a neighbor as long as you play the diplo game correctly. I'm still not completely comfortable with early game rushes, so I need to learn the tactical decisions behind them.

In regards to tech, is it to early to consider Aesthetics for trade fodder, I know it's usually good for getting some higher level techs off of the AI. It sounds like we should hopefully be able to trade Alpha, maybe IW, and others, but as of right now I don't see us having much in the way of trading fodder until we pull in a few other techs.

ShiVvV · Aug 28, 2014

Consensus for 2nd city site seems to be 1N of rice.

@yena
Agree with your turnset plan.

Thoughts about whip/chops in regards to settler/worker builds:
I spent a while contrasting my suggested build order (post #112; one more turn invested into worker, then switch to warrior to grow to S4 (four turns), then S4>S2 the worker with 35OF (I think) going into a settler. About as far as I took it in my head though as I focused too much on simply maxing the OF instead of realizing just how long this path would really delay the 2nd settler. Yes, the 35 OF is nice and all, but it would take us another four turns to grow back to S3 in capital (which would be on tenth turn of this set). And then we'd be looking at the whipped worker having to chop and probably also a 1pop whip of settler S3>S2 in cap. Just too much time and too much overlapping whip unhappiness although with a faster 2nd worker. But the faster settler is more important.

Izuul's build order is better(post #116). We can S4>S2 whip the settler on T9 (no OF as I think we'll have exactly 40 production invested in settler ending T8). As he stated the cow/rice city will produce a worker pretty quickly once at S2 with its pasture. This worker could chop out the worker in capital that we currently have 17 production invested in.

Thoughts about tech path:
The reason I thought math after writing was I anticipated a lot of chopping and it opens up calendar. It's probably more a pattern of mine also in that at this point in game I seem to often go math vs aesthetics or alpha. After seeing input from better players than I regarding teching math I'm starting to see how this choice could be slowing me down--especially the info about AI's prioritizing math/calendar. Question--do they prioritize Alpha?

At least if we go Alpha while our tech rate still good we'd have options. I'm assuming a library in capital will be coming soonish once we've got enough units out to spawbust.

I rarely beeline HR. In this game the AI's just seem too far away (unless one of the other three is closer than we think). In any case wouldn't we need Alpha first for HR to be used as trade bait?

Aesthetics...hmm...now I'm just rambling but would think is possible after Alpha if we do somehow get the marble.

One final thought...who should our espionage be on? No financial civs so far--Cyrus or Izzy maybe?

yena · Aug 28, 2014

Normally I would go Aesthetics if I see marble, but there is so little production here that wonders seem like a bad play. Because of this I think that a military tech is better (and this game is called army training after all). In my experience someone will get alpha early on this level, and we should be able to use HBR to trade for it and other techs. If we are worried about barbs we can go archery before HBR, but I think 1-2 chariots will do for now.

lymond · Aug 28, 2014

AIs generally prioritize Alpha but it is usually just one AI, at least in your known sphere. Usually on this level you have no issues with an AI founding Alpha in a reasonable timeframe (semi-iso is a different story though). Some AIs seem to prioritize it more than others like Joao, Toku and Shaka....the latter two of the three often being a bit problematic.

In more standard games at this level, Aeths is often a good play to self tech as it is not an AI priority tech and can be traded around for Alpha, Maths, IW, and stuff...although I usually trade it for Alpha and then trade Alpha around for Maths and IW, limiting those that have Aesths.

In the case of HBR beeline, the idea is to get that HA rush off as fast as possible, even doing so without bothering with barracks or stables everywhere. HBR has good value and can be traded for Alpha and stuff later with small investments or combo-trades.

Espio is a good question. No one stands out really. In this case with no speed techers I will choose either my early target at first or go with an IMP leader, in this case Cyrus. IMP leaders are among the best of the AIs in general despite being a marginal trait for humans.

pigswill · Aug 28, 2014

HbR sounds pretty good. If we're going for HA rush then Isabella settling close to us would be a good thing. Its worth considering that we met Bis very early, we still haven't found his borders but he shouldn't bee too far north of us so that's another potential target.

lymond · Aug 28, 2014

^^^I concur...let's let Izzy do the work for us...or Bizzy

Quip · Aug 28, 2014

So I have limited experience with HAs on immortal, essentially Nobles' Club CLII. Was very sub-optimal.

So would anyone care to sketch out the plan? I'm pretty curious about the build queues, whipping, research, whatever, that gets us the 8-9 HAs we'll want to declare with.

shpeka · Aug 29, 2014

Early rushes are only required if we do not have enough land. Rushing an opponent with a capital 20+tiles away is a bit strange to me. We do not want to settle double gold double food city but want to conquer a capital that that is even further away?

With our current settling plan and double gems we would probably be first to alpha anyway. Second at most.

On a side note - I would not attack Izzy before she has built a shrine for me.

yena · Aug 29, 2014

We need to agree what to research after writing. Maths is good for chops, HBR for trade bait and military, Aesthetics another trade bait and we can probably get marble if we want it. If we don't get HBR we need archery soon. So start Writing -> Archery this set and discuss further when we know where Bismark is?

As for the gold, I don't think we have good chances to get the northern double gold with Izzy and probably Bismark both closer. We should be able to get the southern gold instead.

I'm waiting a few hours more for input on the science path before playing.

shpeka · Aug 29, 2014

If we agree on settling horse city we could probably get away with chariots instead of archers before barbs strike.

ShiVvV · Aug 29, 2014

IMO archery is not needed. Chariots can take care of our barb issues. If we are unlucky and a barb spear spawns we can react as needed.

I'm just not seeing the HA rush on this map. So I would think writing>alpha.

I'd also pick Izzy as espionage target unless we find a closer AI's border very soon.

Packers5280 · Aug 29, 2014

I don't think Izzy would be a good esp target. Maybe if she got an early religion, but not now. And she's close, so she will be one of our first targets. If there are no strong techers, I usually go after someone with an early religion with esp. If the AI gets a shrine, and spreads their religion effectively, they will tech well because of the shrine. So in this case, I would say Churchill. Although I'm fine with Cyrus as well.

Well, we could go HBR for trade bait, and if Izzy expands toward us as we are teching it, we can rush her. I would not tech alpha. As lymond mentioned, AIs to tech it fairly early. To me, its a question of aest vs HBR.

Quip · Aug 29, 2014

Some of us are forgetting we need archery to build HAs...

Either way, I'm happier going tech route (Alpha) With our gems commerce we should be able to beat at least 2 AIs, if not more, to it on our continent. I think post contruction/IW, we can start considering war, but war is -usually- more costly than just settling open land.

Though if someone still does want to sketch out an HBR plan, I'd love to see it. Mostly just to see where others put their priorities. My best results tend to come from teching/oracling HBR and bulbing math.

yena · Aug 30, 2014

Guys, I'm really sorry but yesterday I got an eye infection. I'm now on antibiotic eye drops that have distorted my sight, and looking at a computer screen or any bright light is a pain. I need to pass this round. Sorry about the delay.

ShiVvV · Aug 31, 2014

Sorry to heart that, yena. Hope that clears up soon.

Looks like I'm up. Turnset plan is basically Izuul's #116 post and yena's #120 post.

Starting set now.

ShiVvV · Aug 31, 2014

Turnset complete. Played through T45. Writing is in and we have open borders with all. Bismark is quite close to our north. Cyrus is nearby to our south. No idea about Churchill still. No wonders at all completed in game yet.

Bismark definitely looks like a potential rush target. He has decent riverside terrain and is probably looking to settle the cow/corn site north of the lake. Our scout heading back north to check out Bismark's land.

I set tech to HbR when writing completed since we certainly do have neighbors quite close.

Our horse site is ready to be settled. Worker can complete connection by roading plains tile in two turns. Capital will finish second worker next turn. Possible tasks for second worker being assisting with horse pasture or farming capital rice. Grassland gems to be hooked up soonish for happy cap. Copper is reachable in the south near dbl gold site but Cyrus is certainly heading that way.

Gondar is building worker currently but this can be switched (to warrior>settler?) once capital produces its worker. I'm thinking library in capital after worker finishes unless we get really pressed for city sites by AI expansion. We may very well have to push back the library and get out another settler quickly. The southern gold site looks even more attractive now with copper nearby but haven't yet been able to locate food for this site.

Turn micro for those interested below.

Spoiler :

The save: View attachment 381746

Notes to next player;
There is a pesky barb archer lurking somewhere east of the marble/incense area. If the warrior 1S of the sugar tile moves to the grassland hill 1SW of sugar he may be attacked on IBT.

Roster:
4. yena (skipped-can play his set when available.)
5. ShiVvV (set complete)
6. Packers5280 (Up)
7. pigswill on deck

shpeka · Sep 1, 2014

Either delay library to get more cities ASAP, or stagnate growth for HA rush. Cyrrus seems too distant. Bismark looks like the only reasonable target.

Packers5280 · Sep 2, 2014

Alright, I'm at work, so I'll take a look at the save and formulate a plan when I get back to my apartment after work.

Izuul · Sep 2, 2014

Only put 1T into horse city road with current worker, then cancel the action. Use new worker to finish that next turn and the other worker can start improving horse afterwards.

Tough call on rush vs expansion. HA attack can still be effective late though, so you might be able to expand a little more now and try to grab one of the gold sites, then go for a later HA assault on Bismarck. He's also had BW since T25 and still only has archers, so he's probably whiffed on metal with his first few cities. Either that or he just settled metal and hasn't gotten it connected yet.

Aaaarmy Training, Sir!

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